FytaKyte - Too Much by VV -- no strings

[Roy]

I think you just have a different philosophy, SonicTramp, when it comes to these things, which is fine. But there are mixers who are hired or just asked to do a mix and they can and do make edits and changes and decisions about the song that go beyond simply setting levels.

[SonicTramp]

I think you just have a different philosophy, SonicTramp, when it comes to these things, which is fine. But there are mixers who are hired or just asked to do a mix and they can and do make edits and changes and decisions about the song that go beyond simply setting levels.

*Well, my philosophy is quite simple. If they didn't want to hear it, they wouldn't send it to you. Those who don't know what they want are not who we are talking about. Don't you think the band and the producer check their stuffs before they send out? Some even come with reverb and delay built in just to make sure the mixer don't mess it up bc they wanted it that way. Imagine a mixer threw it out of the mix. I can only fear for his life.

If you gave me a mix and tell me "do what you want with it as long as you make it better" or something along the line. That is the permission. Fine, I'll bleed for it and will give it my best, as with any mix. But if you gave me a mix and ask me to mix it. That is what I'll do. I'll do my best in mixing bc you come to me specifically for that skill.

Now little edits here and there, a mute now and then is fine, but eliminate an instrument is a drastic decision that is better left for those who know the song most. I think the violins add value to the song; he does not. So which one, man? See how things can get real complicated unnecessarily? Like I said, we need solutions, not problems. So we have what 4 dudes in a band and 1 producer, 5, give or take. That's how many opinions will be in that fight. A waste of time and resources, imo.

One cannot just make changes in a song just bc one thinks it's "better". First, it's a sign of immense disrespect, a violation actually if done w/o permission. Second, ties to the first, is to express: I know better than the rest of you. If I think it's better, it's better. Those are not the best lights for one to be in, imo. But hey, to each his own.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is "better," in this context? How do you decide? Are there criteria we have to meet in order to determine what is better? etc...You can change my mind once I know what it means to you, or at least it will help me see it from your angle.

[Roy]

Except often they do send you stuff they didn't intend to be in the mix.

Sometimes by accident. Sometimes people 'over-record' to have extra options when it comes to a mix. Sometimes it's a 'utility' track like a guitar DI that may or not be used to be reamped. An untuned vocal provided if you think you can tune it better or hear an artifact of tuning. Sometimes it's the count off into the song. Sometimes a part is printed with effects and I curse them because it may have worked at the time but later on just clashes or the balance is off. Sometimes the effect is printed on another but just sucks and I threw it out and never once feared for my life. Sometimes the artist just didn't know better.

I don't really see how it's complicated. Vovolan removed the strings because he didn't think they benefited the song and mixed the song in one direction. You think the strings add value so you kept them in. It's two different ways of doing it and not a problem. It's the mixer's decision the band can argue about it afterwards if they'd like. They probably will regardless. But the intent is to provide the best mix possible with fresh ears and fresh perspective.

I simply don't see it as a sign of disrespect. It's respecting the song which is most important. Some bands are really bands and artists hands on and need to be there every step of the way. That's fine. Some need to have their work worked on by an outside mixer who can take their tracks and make a coherent mix and package for their songs.

If someone is having someone mix their work it's because the assumption is the mixer knows better what to do. I hire a plumber because he knows better than me. I don't like mastering mixes because mastering engineers know better than me. I put some faith in professionals.

Nothing is set in stone, especially these days. One still should have the files when all is said and done. Recalls can be made. It's almost no different at this point than if you present a mix where the band thinks the vocals are too loud. Ok, you made a choice and felt they were better up but you can always bring them back.

As far as what is better, I don't think it's worth getting into a discussion about aesthetics. A 'better' mix supports the song. It can depend on the song and genre and mood and almost anything. But it's something fueled by personal experience.

Again, this is all my opinion and experience. You can disagree with the methodology but it's something that I've done personally as well as a number of other mixers. It's not a problem to be solved. It's just a way of achieving a goal. You can choose to not work that way and that's totally fine too.

Anyway. Apologies. I think we're hijacking the thread.

[tete]

The song sounds pretty good, the kick would lower the frequencies a bit above 900hz, and add a bit above 60hz. Some people would be surprised to use an Hpf on the kick, but it is something that is very effective and makes it very solid and round. Depending on the kick, always from 30hz!! up to 60hz and down cut all frequencies. You will surely get a more defined sound. I liked the effect of the first guitars, the second accompaniment guitars have a very similar equalization to the first ones and are muddy. There is an overload on the 1500hz of the two.
If you use any equalizer and you can see the wave, normally the frequencies that stand out a lot from the others are annoying frequencies, a great friend and sound technician taught me that without listening to the audio before starting to mix a song. If a sound has a very wide range of frequencies, like a voice, for example, and there are frequencies that stick out a lot, that's going to sound bad.
I advise you to use the Gullfoss eq that intelligently modifies the sound and eliminates that nasal sound. Sometimes it really emphasizes the highs and lows, but there is a bar to delimit the frequencies that you don't want it to equalize. Or you just use another eq to lower those frequencies. If something sounds nasal, it is due to a lack of bass, and treble in many cases. You've got a solid mix on almost every sound except the guitars. For the rest, good job and I hope I have been able to help you as much as possible.

[Quathamer]

Hey Vovo,

It's clear you've done some good work on this mix. The transparency you've achieved is insane. Love the drums, bass, and the acoustics. Really tasteful mix and super clean.

Some opportunities to improve this mix could include:
- the guitars are ear-piercing. You could try backing off the saturation (if you've used it), or try a deesser/multiband comp to try reign in the 2-4k poke.
- the lead vocals aren't quite as impactful as the rest of the track. Everything is mixed so well, but it seems as though you've done only some minor tweaks to the vocals. As a result, the vocals seem bit meh.
- the background vocals/doubles have distracting esses that take away from the lead vocals esses, so you may want to look at that.
- the general tone is lacking warmth and body. You've made a lot of room for every individual element, which is great mixing, but now I feel like the vibe of the song has been lost a little.

As I mentioned, this is a really good mix. Like, really good. So please take that feedback as minor opportunities to improve the mix.

Great work.

[Tambo Man]

Nice mix.
A few thoughts.
At the last word "place" of verse, the mix drops about 1db. Probably a forgotten automation.
The lead vocal sounds good but could be louder in the mix driving the song more.
I think you made the second verse even more cluttered even after taking out the strings. if any instrument should be down in the mix its the rhodes. That thing clashes with just about everything.

Everything in the mix sounds good except its not rocking. More electric guit and less acoustic?
The last part of the solo loses energy with the e guits going mono and the loud acu on the sides.

[Marty]

Mixers don't get to decide what is good for the song, not in the way you do it. What is best for the song could be decided by anyone else, most likely the producer or the band or both but not a mixer. Mixers mix, nothing else.

I mean it's you who labeled me as a mixer.
So I guess I am a producer, is it ok then or what? 

The string quartet was part of an emotional shift in the song. Without them you have changed the entire dynamic feeling of the second verse and outro. But hey, if you don't like them, it's ok. You can just produce a thin, dull mix and enjoy it for yourself. I don't think the band would approve. anyway. Cheers.

[tgraph]

"I don't think you should cut out the violins just to make your mix cleaner and easier. Correct me if I am wrong but in real life setting, our job is mixing it, not altering it in anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the band complains."

My opinion... On a site like this, each of us if the final client and can mix and even radically edit any or all of the tracks to suit our personal preference. The choice to cut out the strings may not have been made to make the mix cleaner, or easier (?). It may be that someone just doesn't like how they were written or recorded. Not a self-promotion, but I did a mix and cut out almost half of the tracks. Not to make it easier but to look for a different sound or style. My 2¢.

The vehemence with which some people are dictating their version of the rules to others and shooting off some attempts at nasty insults is pretty funny. If there mixes didn't sound like mix contest entries it might be easier to take them a little more seriously.

[Mixinthecloud]

I think this is a wonderful interpretation of this song. You've produced it nicely with your approach to tonality and environment. Everything thing is there which makes this mix into a song. Strings? Meh. Next mix...

Two items of my concern would be the tom replacements (maybe a bit too unique...) and the vocal automation could follow the content of the lyrics a bit better. I am guilty of the later, myself.

An enjoyable listen. Nicely presented and well executed.

[vovolan]

Thanks @Roy @SonicTramp @tete @Quathamer @Tambo @Marty @tgraph @Mixinthecloud for your comments.

Regarding the removed strings thing, there's nothing more I can add, no more than what I've already said in my previous post. I must say tho, I didn't expect that aspect to bring so much attention, but I don't mind anyone sharing their thoughts on this aspect.

cheers