Dark Ride: 'Hammer Down'

[SonicTramp]

Great to hear you liked the mix. I think it owes its life to you. I wouldn't be able to get it decent enough without your help. I know it still needs a lot more attention (just like my gf, hard to control, costs a lot of time, always wants a little more, etc. Why I still love her? still a mystery) but I think I have a good start.

I remember right after you told me to do a level balance first, I ran into an article by someone (I always feel guilty when I don't remember the author's name, S/he deserves the credit. I do try to remember but always fail to do so.). He said that at one time mixing engineers were called balancing engineers. So that's the key, right? I asked myself. The answer is quite obvious, so I turn my attention to it. You and whoever that wrote the article completely change the way I approach a mix, any mix. From here on out balance is the name of the game for me and "no more seething"-DR.

For me, HP/LP and clip gain are the weapons of choice when balancing volume levels. Lately, I find them both dangerous and wonderful techniques if done carefully and properly. I heard someone said, "if I had 3 days to cut down a tree, I'd spend 2 days grinding that axe." I understand that it's not the length of time that matters, it's the tool. To extrapolate, the HP/LP/clip gain is my axe. So I spent time learning how to listen, to find the subtlest changes, grinding my axe, so to speak. I also heard that, "It takes a thousand cuts to fell a tree." And so I, literally, did a thousand cuts. The result shows a huge improvement. I highly recommend everybody to take advantage of the LP/HP in the beginning stage. Sure, there's nothing glorious about HP/LP, but it'll lay down a good foundation for us to work. It'll help us do our jobs with less pain, both physically and mentally.

Thank you mikej. You help make my journey less bumpy. I appreciate you.

* I forgot to tell you that I agree with your comment about the vocal. I felt the same but left it like that bc I wasn't 100% sure. I have an idea where it should sit in the mix now. Thanks.

[mikej]

Hi,

Well, initially I saw that you were posting a lot of mixes of this track and you seemed to be trying really hard to get this one right and not letting it go. Listening to those mixes I felt that I might possibly be able help give you a bit of a nudge in the right direction, having struggled similarly myself trying to get a halfway decent metal mix.

Getting the vocal level right in a mix is hard. I think the pro mixes of this track have the vocals kind of quite low in the mix. For rock tracks, if you have the vocals lower in the mix, it makes the guitars and drums feel a lot more powerful by contrast. Pop oriented songs have the vocals more out front as a rule. Whether up front, or more set in, I generally attempt to make the vocals feel the same 'distance' from the band throughout the track, if that makes sense? This does sometimes mean gaining up the odd section, individual word or even part of a word if required.

Cheers!

[Blitzzz]

Your last mix is a huge step forward, gratulations. Still, it`s not as balanced as it could be, but I totally see you making progress.

As Mikej said it a couple of times in this thread: It`s way, way, way easier to start a mix with volume and panning ONLY and get a good static mix BEFORE making any corrections or other mix decisions. The reason why it's so simple and effective?

- Because you can FOCUS on the most important thing first: Finding the right initial volume and panning for EVERY track of a project. Depending on the source material your mix will already be at 80-90% of what it takes to get a great mix
- Because you will LISTEN to every track without any changes (eq, comp, fx, whatever) and get a feel of what material you have at your disposal
- Because a good static mix GREATLY REDUCES the steps you have to make to get an awesome mix in the end
- Because a good static mix REMOVES a lot of the guesswork in terms of EQ and Comp. Why you ask? Well, if the guitars sound AWESOME in your static mix, WHY should you use an EQ to remove or boost frequencies, almost certainly creating problems that lead to a plethora of additional steps to fix what wasn`t broken to begin with?
- You will learn to know WHEN a problematic track needs to be fixed. If you can't get a track to sit where you want it to sit in the mix with the volume and pan controls, you 100% know that this track needs more work. Therefore, you will FIX ONLY WHAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED, removing a lot of unessesary and unproductive guesswork from your creative process.
- You will also learn to listen and make changes to each track by always listening to the whole mix. You don't need 10 years of experience to tell if a compressor does it's job if the only decision you have to make is if the track sounds better with or without it in the context of the whole mix. You could even mix with presets most of the time.

Everyone wants to use their shiny plugins right from the get-go because they paid a ton of money for them and/or someone on the internet told them to, but it`s actually ruining most of the mixes I heard on this forum. If you use eq and compression from the start without even taking the time to listen to each track, you have already added a ton of variables to the whole process. Why do you want to introduce dozens of variables to your decision process right at the very start if the simple question "Is this loud enough" for each track will give you 80% of the results needed to get a great mix?

So again: It`s way, way, way easier to only mix with volume and panning and get a good static mix first and then go from there. You only have to care about two parameters. That`s it. No worries, almost no guesswork what to do next, and most of the decisions you make at this point are fun. At which level do you want a solo to sit at? A bit louder than the rhythm guitars? Cool, just move the fader until it sounds good. Do you want the background vocals to be louder than the synths? Cool, again, just move the fader until it sounds good. Hihat too loud? Reduce the volume and pan it to the left or right, depending on the rest of the drumkit. Vocals sometimes too loud, sometimes to quiet? Okay, maybe it's time to use a compressor after you are done with the static mix.

These are all decisions a mixer has to make, and since I'm ignoring all other options for a static mix except volume and panning at this point, I can make very important, valuable decisions without self-doubt. There is no guesswork involved if the only option I have is to make something louder or quieter. It`s an easy decision, but it`s the most important decision for mixing. And it`s a something that doesn`t need 20 years of experience in mixing.

If a problem can`t be fixed with a simple volume raise, like my example with the vocal track, YOU KNOW that you probably have to use eq and/or compression to fix a track. The beauty of this process is that you only introduce ONE new parameter on ONE track into your decision-making process, which makes it much, much, much easier to decide whether or not the change you made with the EQ or compressor makes the TOTAL MIX sound better. If it doesn`t, you know that you have to spend more time on the track. If it does - great, move on.

I can`t stress the simplicity of this mixing process enough. It leads to better mixes, and it actually helps you to effectively use an EQ or Compressor and clearly hear the changes to the mix

[mikej]

Hi,

First off, no big deal - but just a gentle reminder for us to try and moderate our language in discussion as best we can. (I'm sure it meant to say that people spend 'a lot' of money on plugins).

Anyway. Really excellent post. For me Blitzzz has really hit the nail on the head and has summed it all up perfectly. 

Personally it took me a long time to start to really understand what he is getting at. Difficult to explain - I think it's somehow quite easy to read it and think you get it, until you actually get it. If that makes sense?

Cheers!

[Blitzzz]

Totally makes sense

[SonicTramp]

Why do I feel I owe both of you some money?

Sure, man, I understand what Blitzzz and you wrote, clear as day.

Thanks both for spending the time. That was very kind and compassionate of you to reach out and help others when you see them struggle. Altruism is part of how we survive all the way from the dawn of time. And I benefit from it.

Btw, to Blitzzz, I do love your music, man, especially this one. So, yeah, it makes it easier to work when I like the song to start with, the music won me over way before I met you or even knew you play the guitar, or a mixer.

[Blitzzz]

This thread reminds me of Shul´s voyage and how he dealt with the problems he had while mixing this song. It took a while, but he came up with a very good mix in the end. (https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...?tid=20042), and he also managed to deliver one of the best Piece of me mixes afterwards (https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...?tid=14799). It was great to see him getting better and better over time.

[mikej]

Why do I feel I owe both of you some money?

Sure, man, I understand what Blitzzz and you wrote, clear as day.

Thanks both for spending the time. That was very kind and compassionate of you to reach out and help others when you see them struggle. Altruism is part of how we survive all the way from the dawn of time. And I benefit from it.

Btw, to Blitzzz, I do love your music, man, especially this one. So, yeah, it makes it easier to work when I like the song to start with, the music won me over way before I met you or even knew you play the guitar, or a mixer.

Hey no worries, just trying to pay it forward as best I can. I also picked up a few things and did probably one of my best mixes off the back of this thread. I think everyone benefits from positive threads like this. Don't forget you've put in quite a bit of effort here too. I think you've probably done something like 10+ mixes of this track so far. A lot of people give up after just the 1 attempt but you've kept on working away at it to get closer to the results you are after.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Haha I've done more like 100+ mixes of this song if you counted the ones I didn't post. I don't mind working on this song since it has other qualities I prefer as well, for example, high quality recording, performance, etc.
Thanks to you, man, I, too, learn a lot from this thread, much more so than you. I never knew how potent the initial step was. From that, I also know now why the pros preferred the faders close to unity. Sometimes a couple of tenths of a dB can actually makes a difference and more room is better. I have a little taste of it and give it a lot more respect than I used to. I can list a lot more but let's just say that it makes it so much easier to work. I learn so much in the last couple months than all the years I put in. You and Blitzzz showed me it was not quite so hopeless. I am quite lucky and, of course, grateful.

Here is my latest mix. It is the result of what I have learned from both of you. I am happy with it for now. It took longer than usual because I am more careful in identifying the problems and still in learning stage of listening skill. And that alone itself takes some time to master. There are many frequencies I still don't hear or don't recognize. And heuristic method (my only way to learn) is always long and arduous but a beneficial one bc I discover many other things I didn't intent to find out at the moment.

Right now I am on that leg, the separation, and unmasking (EQ) is the only way I know to do it, unless you know of some other ways. So if you give it a listen, I'd like to know how well I separate them. I am more interest in knowing what instruments you have trouble hearing clearly. If possible..., would I be too greedy if I ask for some solutions while you're at it if you have them? Thanks in advance.

[mikej]

Hi,

Separation and unmasking.  That's quite a big question, and it's quite difficult to explain how I internalise it.  I feel everyone has their own way of thinking about it. 

As I see it - you don't actually have to hear everything all the time.  It's a mix, not a collection of individual, perfectly frequency separated parts as such. I think a mix would sound a bit odd if you had the kick perfectly bracketed to fill only 30-70hz, the bass 70-150, the guitar 200-3k, the vocal 3k-7k, the hi-hat 8-12k, etc. 

It's more about first thinking of the frequency range as a whole.  Figuring out what instrumentation you've got in the session, where they are all going to sit in the spectrum, and figuring out which freqs of each instrument you want to be cutting through at any given time.  A bit like a play at the theatre. You have various 'characters' in the mix and they are not all going to be centre stage all at once.  You have to figure out who the main characters are, who is in the supporting cast, and who needs to be in the spotlight at any given time.

I mean, you've maybe got some broad basics, like, I dunno, boosting the fundamental of the kick, and maybe a little 3k, cutting some stuff you don't want, like any resonances or perhaps mud/room tones around 400-800Hz or whatever.  Maybe in the mix with everything playing you might want to boost that 3k a bit more, or maybe it's 2k or 4k boost to get it to cut.  Perhaps the kick has too much 3k... Basically you have to figure out what you want to hear (or not hear) as you get everything playing together as the mix progresses. 

It's a combination of eq, automation and using the mute buttons to figure it all out.  Do you need to high pass the bass a bit as it's masking the low end of the kick, or whatever.

Over time you'll figure out your own favourite frequencies to boost and cut for each instrument or sound.  I think I started off by looking at the CLA presets in the (W*ves) SSL channel plugin and seeing how all the different instrument presets kind of broadly fitted together in a full mix and went from there. 

If you've got a decent initial balance, as Blitzzz said in his post above you'll likely have a good idea of what needs to be fixed.

Not sure if I've actually answered your question there....

Oh, forgot to mention a little eq on the instrument busses can often be that final touch to get everything sitting nicely. 

On to the latest mix.  Right now I'm listening on earbuds which are not the greatest so my comments here might be a little off.  To be honest, as per your previous mix, I feel its more a bit of balance and automation that is required rather than anything else at this point.

Intro - I feel the synth could perhaps come up a db or so.  The snare is sounding a little loud compared the guitar.  I feel I want the rhythm guitar to be more in the spotlight, rather than the snare, as such.  At the 18 second mark, I'm wanting the guitar riff to be taking over that centre stage spot a little more than the snare.  Then the vocal can take over the spotlight as we go into the first verse. 

During the verse I think the drums are perhaps dominating a little too much and are pushing the vocals into the background.  The drums are feeling kind of on top of the mix to me, rather than a part of it. 

Actually I think perhaps it's the drums as whole are just a little too loud in the mix and are throwing the whole thing off balance.  Try lowering the volume of the whole drum group so they kind of blend a little more with the guitars in the mix.  That will probably do the trick perhaps?  Check out the drums balance in the library mix.

The guitar riff at 3;23 and 3:33 is still too low - I would maybe try making it the same volume as the guitar solo.  So it's the solo in the spotlight, then the riff steps forward, then the solo, then the riff again.  Direct the listeners ear!  (Edit: That riff is one of the hooks throughout the song, so they need to be loud).

Vocal from 3:53 needs to be a touch louder to lift it above the guitars.  I'd try setting the vocal level at that point by playing the guitars and vocal on their own, then see how it works in the full mix.

That's about it I think for now.

Cheers!