09-05-2021, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2021, 10:15 PM by mikej.)
Hi,
Well, I tried...
Cheers!
Update: Added mix 2.0 - Work in progress....
Update: Added mix 3.0 - Attempt number 3... Still trying to get the right tone and balance...
Update: Added mix 4.0 - New mix. Less processing - more focus on balance. Still probably needs more work on tone, etc....
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
snare could be tighter.. I'd compress it a bit more so it doesn't sound that loose. Kick is too loud and the low energy on it is not helping the mix.
The rest of the mix seems to be balanced pretty good.
10-05-2021, 08:21 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2021, 08:24 AM by bcs_mix.)
Mostly agree with Shul. Except that I think snare could rather use some tighter EQs than compression. It sounds relatively too authentic (too much mids, and 'woodiness') compared to kick, which yes is way too loud (that blast in 3.07 !!!). You could use more low-end from the bass guitar instead of relying solely on the kick. Also, turn down that Ride cymbal! Vocals are good, the main singing vocal could use just a tad more compression though.
I know the mix is not working. This will be a long post. Sorry for the essay - I have lots of questions!
I did consider putting all these questions in the first post, but figured that everyone can hear what is wrong in the mix.. I was hoping I would get some pointers. Many thanks for the comments so far, much appreciated.
I will likely need some more help yet...
I have shied away from revisiting mixing metal as previous attempts were really quite disastrous, but thought it time to give it another try at least.
Mixing modern metal is it's own thing in itself - with it's own terminology and techniques - and I obviously don't really know what I am doing with it yet, despite reading the notes and also watching a few tutorials. I find with mixing you really need to get to the point where it is instinctive as to what is right and wrong as such, and I am so far from that point with this stuff. I hear it straight away when people try and turn dance drums into rock drums and it sounds wrong to me straight away... Likewise, I get it that it is painfully obvious I don't know what I am doing with mixing metal.
For me anyway, you need to be able to figure out and understand the 'why' yourself, rather than watch someone quickly twiddle an eq and add the latest plugin they are selling... on an already great sounding mix... I also don't really listen to this genre that much, other than for research purposes, which probably doesn't help matters either....
Right, Ok...
Kick - I did take loads of low end off, well I thought I had... I high passed it to around 80 or so, but I also gave it a bump around 80hz. I guess I will take off the bump, and maybe try not have it quite so loud in the mix.
Towards the end of the mix I revisited the balance and maybe ended up putting the whole drum group too loud overall perhaps... Maybe should have left them where I had them initially...
Oh, I did create a bus for the kicks, and put an automated low shelf on it for the blast beats though.
Snare:
Yeah I know it's wrong, but I really couldn't figure out how to get to the right sound. I did gate it and take out a little around 500, but from what you are saying, bcs_mix, I should maybe scoop out most of the mids and compress it really hard? I did take out a little 500, but seems that I don't need to be shy with it as such? I was thinking it was maybe more of balance thing I was maybe not getting! I'll try hitting it hard with the compressor instead.
Is the snare also too loud in the mix? When I got it about right, you couldn't really hear the lighter hit snare during the blast beats at all. Is the built in snare balance right, or do I need to be automating the levels here? I really wasn't sure.
Main (Rhythm?) Guitar:
The library mix feels like it maybe has some mids carved out, kind of 1k 2k ish.. not sure... Is this the case, or is it just the mix balance? Or is there some additional processing going on? I didn't do anything with it because 'don't change the guitar tone' but at the same time, I do feel I am missing something here. I understand some people actually do automatically carve out 1k or 2k, or whatever their taste is, but I try not to do things automatically as such, without some understanding at least.
Overall mix:
Right, I hope this makes sense...
To me the library mix sounds a little tube-ish, maybe kind of mid scooped (which kind of highlights the drums and bass) and a bit 6k-ish. Is this more down to the eq and balance of the individual elements, rather than some overall mix bus processing?
I recall my first impression of listening to this stuff is that it is kind of bass light in a way, but I am understanding it is more a case of high passing everything a bit higher than one might normally do, to avoid build up of the low end frequencies during faster passages, etc?
Normally I feel I can figure things out and get somewhere close just by listening and trying a few things, but I am really struggling to work out what is actually going on with this stuff. I have also learned that heavy guitars tend to mess with my perception of things a bit too, so it is also a struggle to maintain perspective after going at it for a while. It's sometimes difficult to take that break you need, when you really want to keep working at it!
Thanks all!
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
10-05-2021, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2021, 10:00 PM by mikej.)
Hi,
Spent some time on the mix this evening. No updated mix to post quite yet as my ears are now done for the day and I'm not quite sure what I have at the moment. I will say that cutting the mids from the snare and compressing it hard really seems to have done the trick. Doing that seems to have really cleaned the mix up a lot too with regards to the drums, so I can hear what is going on a bit better.
One more quick question - I'm guessing the kicks are panned out a little, is that right correct, and by how much usually?, just enough to get a little movement, or so?
Thanks.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
11-05-2021, 12:49 AM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2021, 01:15 PM by Blitzzz.)
There is a whole community / website for mixing (mostly) metal called URM. Basically, it's a subscription service where you get the original tracks from a song from a pro band at the start of a month, have some time to play around with them on your own, and at the end of the month, there is a live session with the original mixer mixing the song step by step in a 4-10 hour streaming session. So you can basically copy every move (if you have the same plugins) and end up mostly with the same "sound". That's where I got most of my mixing skills from, basically learning everything directly from some of my favorite mixers. So thank you, internet
Surprisingly, most of those mixers use the same plugins that we have in our toolbox (Waves, Slate, Fab, that kind of stuff), with some of them even do the unthinkable and use stock plugins. On top of that, everyone uses their own kind of preferred samples for kick, snare and toms, and that's it.
Yep, that's it. When you watch those sessions, you slowly realize that the sound from the record was already there from the start, and most of the time the guy on the screen only had to make small eq moves, cuts, boosts, and a bit of automation to make the tracks sound exactly like the mix / song you hear on the record. It's not the studio, the nice speakers, the well-treated room. It's well played and recorded tracks and the ability of the mixer to not mess too much with the original sound, just to enhance it.
And that's where a lot of people fail, because they think they have to make drastic EQ moves to make something sound different than it was recorded. That they have to cut X Hz because that's what Big Pro Guy said in a video, totally ignoring the fact that every recording is different and that you can't apply the same settings to the rhythm guitar all the time.
Sure, you probably have to enhance the original drum sound with samples, because it's hard to get THAT sound everybody is looking for without them. But in the end, it's mostly the same kick and snare samples over, and over again. Why? Because they just work. Here is a great video from Rick Beato showing how Andy Wallace basically uses the same kick on different records: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F916ioSWdts
You can (and should) use a similar approach for the rhythm guitars: At the end of the mixing chain, put a limiter on each rhythm guitar track, limiting the volume so almost every hit gets affected. You are now basically pinning them to a certain volume. Together with the bass, you can now create the typical "wall of sound" that stays consistent throughout the song by just balancing the rhythm guitars with the bass. You don't need dynamics on guitars in metal anyway, and if you want movement, use automation and add movement (aka volume changes) to make a part more exciting. You will instantly notice how big this will sound.
For the rest of the mix, Nollys Tutorials are great to understand how you mix this kind of material.
I would really check the last video because it's basically a free "how to mix metal"-Tutorial from a very good and respected engineer and mixer with great insights. Oh, and did I say it's free?
One more quick question - I'm guessing the kicks are panned out a little, is that right correct, and by how much usually?, just enough to get a little movement, or so?
Thanks.
Cheers!
Never panned double kicks, probably never will. Don't see a reason to spread them out, I´ll always keep them mono, right in the center
11-05-2021, 04:06 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2021, 04:20 PM by Blitzzz.)
More tips:
Don't mess too much with the snare itself. Use it as a base, let it provide the ghost notes and the overall tone of the snare. After that, just add a sample of your choice with the elements that you are missing. If you want more bass, beef and oomph, chose a hefty & beefy sample and introduce it slowly into the mix until it sounds great in combination with the original snare. You probably have to use automation to bring down the volume of the sample in the blast beats so the snare doesn't sound unnatural.
Bass: Already wrote about this, but splitting up the bass track and using a limiter on the "sub and low bass" track is a clean and easy way to create that "wall of sound" you are looking for. You can allow the bass track with the mid and high frequencies some freedom in terms of dynamics, though.
Same goes for guitars: Use a limiter to pin them to a certain volume, like an on/off switch. The rhythm guitars are either "on" and playing at 100%, or off at 0%, with nothing in between.
Check the picture I've added. As you can see, there is some movement on the "Bass High" track, but almost no movement on the Bass low sitting nice and tight at -16, with the guitars "Rhythm L DI" and "Rhythm R DI" tracks sitting mostly at -18. And that's where they sit throughout most of the mix, not moving at all.
Kick and bass: Let the kick decide where you set the focus for kick and bass. Just take a look at the analyzer in the pictures: The kick has it's main peak around 50hz, so that's where I boost it. The bass reigns at 100hz in my mix. So I made a boost at 100 and a cut at 50hz to make room for the kick, and vice versa. That's it.
11-05-2021, 09:20 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2021, 04:52 PM by crownoise.)
(10-05-2021, 10:38 AM)mikej Wrote: Hi,
Thanks for checking it out.
I know the mix is not working. This will be a long post. Sorry for the essay - I have lots of questions!
I did consider putting all these questions in the first post, but figured that everyone can hear what is wrong in the mix.. I was hoping I would get some pointers. Many thanks for the comments so far, much appreciated.
I will likely need some more help yet...
I have shied away from revisiting mixing metal as previous attempts were really quite disastrous, but thought it time to give it another try at least.
Mixing modern metal is it's own thing in itself - with it's own terminology and techniques - and I obviously don't really know what I am doing with it yet, despite reading the notes and also watching a few tutorials. I find with mixing you really need to get to the point where it is instinctive as to what is right and wrong as such, and I am so far from that point with this stuff. I hear it straight away when people try and turn dance drums into rock drums and it sounds wrong to me straight away... Likewise, I get it that it is painfully obvious I don't know what I am doing with mixing metal.
For me anyway, you need to be able to figure out and understand the 'why' yourself, rather than watch someone quickly twiddle an eq and add the latest plugin they are selling... on an already great sounding mix... I also don't really listen to this genre that much, other than for research purposes, which probably doesn't help matters either....
Right, Ok...
Kick - I did take loads of low end off, well I thought I had... I high passed it to around 80 or so, but I also gave it a bump around 80hz. I guess I will take off the bump, and maybe try not have it quite so loud in the mix.
Towards the end of the mix I revisited the balance and maybe ended up putting the whole drum group too loud overall perhaps... Maybe should have left them where I had them initially...
Oh, I did create a bus for the kicks, and put an automated low shelf on it for the blast beats though.
Snare:
Yeah I know it's wrong, but I really couldn't figure out how to get to the right sound. I did gate it and take out a little around 500, but from what you are saying, bcs_mix, I should maybe scoop out most of the mids and compress it really hard? I did take out a little 500, but seems that I don't need to be shy with it as such? I was thinking it was maybe more of balance thing I was maybe not getting! I'll try hitting it hard with the compressor instead.
Is the snare also too loud in the mix? When I got it about right, you couldn't really hear the lighter hit snare during the blast beats at all. Is the built in snare balance right, or do I need to be automating the levels here? I really wasn't sure.
Main (Rhythm?) Guitar:
The library mix feels like it maybe has some mids carved out, kind of 1k 2k ish.. not sure... Is this the case, or is it just the mix balance? Or is there some additional processing going on? I didn't do anything with it because 'don't change the guitar tone' but at the same time, I do feel I am missing something here. I understand some people actually do automatically carve out 1k or 2k, or whatever their taste is, but I try not to do things automatically as such, without some understanding at least.
Overall mix:
Right, I hope this makes sense...
To me the library mix sounds a little tube-ish, maybe kind of mid scooped (which kind of highlights the drums and bass) and a bit 6k-ish. Is this more down to the eq and balance of the individual elements, rather than some overall mix bus processing?
I recall my first impression of listening to this stuff is that it is kind of bass light in a way, but I am understanding it is more a case of high passing everything a bit higher than one might normally do, to avoid build up of the low end frequencies during faster passages, etc?
Normally I feel I can figure things out and get somewhere close just by listening and trying a few things, but I am really struggling to work out what is actually going on with this stuff. I have also learned that heavy guitars tend to mess with my perception of things a bit too, so it is also a struggle to maintain perspective after going at it for a while. It's sometimes difficult to take that break you need, when you really want to keep working at it!
Thanks all!
Cheers!
Hi Mike! I don't think this is a bad mix at all tbh. I love your way to describe the issue with mixing metal, it boils down to many things, as you said and compared the sound with having metal sounding drums in a pop or house sounding song being something different then the contrast. Also i do agree with the way you described looking at a quick youtube video not always contributing to understanding and finding the whole sound you are going after. Sure it can be a nice guideline for beginners to understand how to get somewhere near what they are looking for, but it often results in super stale sounding drums being in your face and sounding distracting but "right" in a sense etc. I will try to help you somehow, i'm not a pro but i feel that i lately have been understanding that i am leaning more towards mixing okay when i am working on metal songs then lets say a pop or "house" track. When you said that it's more about finding the why when mixing metal i think you touched the essence of mixing metal, you sort of need to "gamble" a bit i believe to get to where you want to without loosing the key elements (since you often need to do a bit "wrong" things to find the "right" sound). When going for a more fullblast sound which often is what metal demands more times then not you want to have a more smashed sound in my opinion, and for me clipping/limiting and distorting elements are what rings the right bells, but these are the tools that can really mess things up. My advice would be to not get too technical at a glans (by cleaning to much with gates and making to much room for things to loose the perseption since it takes time) by first and foremost mixing at quite ridiculously low volumes, because this allows you to hone in on transients and dynamics better because your own perception gains more dynamics (hope this doesn't sound to bad, its hard to describe it in a second language). This will allow you to really go harder on lets say having a distortion plugin on your snare that allows you to totally obliviate it and still in relation to the other elements have it well placed since you now have a good headroom, i would say don't just turn down the volume in your monitoring but do gain stuff down with maybe a simple gain plug also so you can have physical headroom when doing so aswell. After you tried this ask yourself a couple of times if its way to much or if it makes your head bang a bit more lol . A snare that is digital for instance can sound much better or totally much worse when first equing lowend into it into a very slammed distortion and putting a compressor before or after the distortion that nukes it. I think having these paletts and then blending them back (I like dry wet knobs) to still have the tone there and making them cut thru out the song but still keeping the originality and "rightness" by preserving the transients could be a nice move many times. But be very critical and see if lets say a faster release gives you more of all of the snare hits hitting or if the releasetime actually is giving you like one hit and then pegging the compressor and never letting the other faster hits to come back. Im trying to be a bit objective analyzing your mix. For me that kick sounds grate , really good tone but it is almost to powerfull vs the rest of the mix. The bassguitar DI or amp lacks all of the lowend energy, so trying to puzzle the kick in relation to the bass could honestly to be to boost super lows like 30 hz - 90 hz and then bringing it down, if you lack highend and transients in the kick after that just eq some into the kick back in again to make it cut or gain it with a transientshaper that actually works so it brings all of the hits in there and not just one (or smash it on a seperate channel before the transient designer so you gain more hits could be an idea aswell), then i think the bass would breathe more around the frequencies that it is more naturally acouring and resonating. You said something about cutting bass in kick, this is something i never do, especially if i try to gate the kick because you want the gate to work on and letting thru the essential frequencies in the kick and not the highend that you are trying to get rid of that is bleeding. But i do understand and know that its easier many times to deal with a mix that isn't blooming everywhere in the bassare so yea i can relate. BUT i do believe that you often subjectively can hear a "shy" mix, and cutting powerful frequencies often sounds thinner and more "lame" to my ears, even if it is cleaner and more modern. So my other idea i would bring to you here is to stop cutting to much stuff and more try to give the right energy into the elements instead, i find this working more often when mixing metal and rock then other genres, i believe its because as you said it comes down to finding the why, and you want to bring energy into metal and not taking it away, so by focusing more on that it probably would lead you more into the right areas, if you have headroom to do so. I would say that i lately find that for instance equing very low frequencies and very much not higher bassfrequencies then that into a guitar can lead to a powerfull mix and then NOT cutting around the same area in the kick to actually LET it fight and compeat to cut vs the guitar can be a more "right" way then trying to shy away from it. Sure you will probably need to do it conservatively and also sometimes controlling it afterwards. I also do know its very hard and i am far from making the mixes that are possible and how i hear it in my head, but we are getting there together. I think Blitz gave a good help in the answer above this, i think that its a good idea to blend addatives and just to keep a look out if it sounds phasey. Also i think that automating things if you have and want to put the time in is the gratest way to taking it to the next level and keeping faster hits audible, this takes away alot of the comprimizing sounds and issues, for some reason i never do this lol i must start to haha! Hope this brings you something new to the table, i think you did a good mix here so don't be too hard on yourself.
. A snare that is digital for instance can sound much better or totally much worse when first equing lowend into it into a very slammed distortion and putting a compressor before or after the distortion that nukes it. I think having these paletts and then blending them back (I like dry wet knobs) to still have the tone there and making them cut thru out the song but still keeping the originality and "rightness" by preserving the transients could be a nice move many times. But be very critical and see if lets say a faster release gives you more of all of the snare hits hitting or if the releasetime actually is giving you like one hit and then pegging the compressor and never letting the other faster hits to come back. Im trying to be a bit objective analyzing your mix. For me that kick sounds grate , really good tone but it is almost to powerfull vs the rest of the mix. The bassguitar DI or amp lacks all of the lowend energy, so trying to puzzle the kick in relation to the bass could honestly to be to boost super lows like 30 hz - 90 hz and then bringing it down, if you lack highend and transients in the kick after that just eq some into the kick back in again to make it cut or gain it with a transientshaper that actually works so it brings all of the hits in there and not just one (or smash it on a seperate channel before the transient designer so you gain more hits could be an idea aswell), then i think the bass would breathe more around the frequencies that it is more naturally acouring and resonating. You said something about cutting bass in kick, this is something i never do, especially if i try to gate the kick because you want the gate to work on and letting thru the essential frequencies in the kick and not the highend that you are trying to get rid of that is bleeding. But i do understand and know that its easier many times to deal with a mix that isn't blooming everywhere in the bassare so yea i can relate. BUT i do believe that you often subjectively can hear a "shy" mix, and cutting powerful frequencies often sounds thinner and more "lame" to my ears, even if it is cleaner and more modern. So my other idea i would bring to you here is to stop cutting to much stuff and more try to give the right energy into the elements instead, i find this working more often when mixing metal and rock then other genres, i believe its because as you said it comes down to finding the why, and you want to bring energy into metal and not taking it away, so by focusing more on that it probably would lead you more into the right areas, if you have headroom to do so. I would say that i lately find that for instance equing very low frequencies and very much not higher bassfrequencies then that into a guitar can lead to a powerfull mix and then NOT cutting around the same area in the kick to actually LET it fight and compeat to cut vs the guitar can be a more "right" way then trying to shy away from it. Sure you will probably need to do it conservatively and also sometimes controlling it afterwards. I also do know its very hard and i am far from making the mixes that are possible and how i hear it in my head, but we are getting there together. I think Blitz gave a good help in the answer above this, i think that its a good idea to blend addatives and just to keep a look out if it sounds phasey. Also i think that automating things if you have and want to put the time in is the gratest way to taking it to the next level and keeping faster hits audible, this takes away alot of the comprimizing sounds and issues, for some reason i never do this lol i must start to haha! Hope this brings you something new to the table, i think you did a good mix here so don't be too hard on yourself.