(24-03-2016, 08:24 AM)Shul Wrote: All decisions completely respected as they are 100% done based on your taste and what you are aiming for in a mix.
That's why I can't tell you specifically "this is what you HAVE to do" because your taste and perspective are different from mine.
I do live sound on my church as well and I totally know what you mean. I'm used to eq the drums a certain way in my computer but when in comes to live sound is all about "the room" the gig is playing in. Punchy and big bass reference is great in a live gig. Over the years I have learn how to apply the two different perspectives. I totally understand why you are looking for that particular sound, no worries
About the separate tracks: Unfortunately the same tracks you have, I have. We can't really split the snare bottom from top.. or the hi hat in a separate track. That's how the stems were supplied to us in the forum. We can't separate any track into independent tracks that easily. I still have not discovered how to do that in my Daw so therefore I can't tell you how it's done, or supply them to you. We gonna have to do it this way.
Ok now the Version 6. Unfortunately I now think Version 5 sounds better than 6 for the reasons I will mention.
*V5 feels cleaner than V6. Reasons for this I believe is the changes in volume of some instruments and its eq as well. Just overall listening to it.
*I don't hear the kick as much. Could be the bass is too loud as you mentioned hehehe. Or it could also be the limiter you are placing on master bus is compressing too much and at parts the mix feels squashed.
*overall processing is a bit too enhanced in comparison to V5.
Not saying it's completely awful, but I do find V5 to be better sounding than 6.
Having said that I think "not helping your self" from tweaking things here and there could be a disadvantage, but then again, that's why all these multitracks are being supplied. To practice and to feast in all these awesome music.
I would advise that you would upload your mix without the limiter in the master bus or whatever it is you are using to get a loud volume, don't use it and upload it to see how it sounds without it. May be your limiter is causing some changes in the overall mix. I don't mind turning my speakers up to get a good volume on my side of the screen, as long as I'm listening to your mix without the loudness.
Shul,
Thank you for your time and respect. It is refreshing and its the only way to learn and we all have room to learn.
I was getting a little frustrated --that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" thing.
So I went back to the very beginning. I set up my day as close as I could to the way I like to mix live--wish Reaper had better VCA's but alas.
I also trashed the master buss--All new to mee and from your comments it was just causing problems--and I agree.
Also I brought out my trusty cans. My ears are used to them and I used them lots in the Live scene. Good or bad it made me feel more confident and comfortable.
Just a quick note for the band. I know why you posted the stems as is and I can't say I blame you as tis your stuff and you can tell if someone posts your stuff on soundcloud or Itunes. Try taking a look at the Heil drum mics. I love em and they make me smile--less crap and bleed to deal with.
Take a listen if you have time.
Mike
ps- Thanks again for trying to Teach this old dog. "its been a gas, a real gas" to quote Stevie Marriott
(24-03-2016, 08:24 AM)Shul Wrote: All decisions completely respected as they are 100% done based on your taste and what you are aiming for in a mix.
That's why I can't tell you specifically "this is what you HAVE to do" because your taste and perspective are different from mine.
I do live sound on my church as well and I totally know what you mean. I'm used to eq the drums a certain way in my computer but when in comes to live sound is all about "the room" the gig is playing in. Punchy and big bass reference is great in a live gig. Over the years I have learn how to apply the two different perspectives. I totally understand why you are looking for that particular sound, no worries
About the separate tracks: Unfortunately the same tracks you have, I have. We can't really split the snare bottom from top.. or the hi hat in a separate track. That's how the stems were supplied to us in the forum. We can't separate any track into independent tracks that easily. I still have not discovered how to do that in my Daw so therefore I can't tell you how it's done, or supply them to you. We gonna have to do it this way.
Ok now the Version 6. Unfortunately I now think Version 5 sounds better than 6 for the reasons I will mention.
*V5 feels cleaner than V6. Reasons for this I believe is the changes in volume of some instruments and its eq as well. Just overall listening to it.
*I don't hear the kick as much. Could be the bass is too loud as you mentioned hehehe. Or it could also be the limiter you are placing on master bus is compressing too much and at parts the mix feels squashed.
*overall processing is a bit too enhanced in comparison to V5.
Not saying it's completely awful, but I do find V5 to be better sounding than 6.
Having said that I think "not helping your self" from tweaking things here and there could be a disadvantage, but then again, that's why all these multitracks are being supplied. To practice and to feast in all these awesome music.
I would advise that you would upload your mix without the limiter in the master bus or whatever it is you are using to get a loud volume, don't use it and upload it to see how it sounds without it. May be your limiter is causing some changes in the overall mix. I don't mind turning my speakers up to get a good volume on my side of the screen, as long as I'm listening to your mix without the loudness.
Shul,
Thank you for your time and respect. It is refreshing and its the only way to learn and we all have room to learn.
I was getting a little frustrated --that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" thing.
So I went back to the very beginning. I set up my day as close as I could to the way I like to mix live--wish Reaper had better VCA's but alas.
I also trashed the master buss--All new to mee and from your comments it was just causing problems--and I agree.
Also I brought out my trusty cans. My ears are used to them and I used them lots in the Live scene. Good or bad it made me feel more confident and comfortable.
Just a quick note for the band. I know why you posted the stems as is and I can't say I blame you as tis your stuff and you can tell if someone posts your stuff on soundcloud or Itunes. Try taking a look at the Heil drum mics. I love em and they make me smile--less crap and bleed to deal with.
Take a listen if you have time.
Mike
ps- Thanks again for trying to Teach this old dog. "its been a gas, a real gas" to quote Stevie Marriott
Pps Give it a go at around 95db or so. She comes alive.
Wow man... super great!!! I think that revision is the one we are gonna stick with!!!
Let me give it a go and try to push the volume up with the plug ins I have. I now know why your limiter was squashing it. The low end on your kick and bass were the ones triggering the Limiter's peak.
and wait.. did I call you an "old dog"? i don't recall calling you that, or is that just a phrase you used?
Also I'm not the owner of these stems. I get the feeling you think I'm part of Angels in Amplifiers band. I'm not hehe I'm just another guy posting mixes like you.
Be right back gonna go master this mix. Again.. this great!
Your mix with loudness. minimal changes in the process.
That limiter you put was definitely killing your mix. Sometimes overdoing things to try to get loudness is bad.
(25-03-2016, 03:41 AM)Shul Wrote: Your mix with loudness. minimal changes in the process.
That limiter you put was definitely killing your mix. Sometimes overdoing things to try to get loudness is bad.
Shul,
You nailed it!! Was reaching for a Pint Right away!!
the old dog thing is a saying us old americans use so no worries.
Didn't think you were with the band. Just posted it if they were tuning in.
Feel free to work on it some more if you have the time. Proves this "old dog" doesn't know squat about mastering eh?
(25-03-2016, 03:41 AM)Shul Wrote: Your mix with loudness. minimal changes in the process.
That limiter you put was definitely killing your mix. Sometimes overdoing things to try to get loudness is bad.
Shul,
You nailed it!! Was reaching for a Pint Right away!!
the old dog thing is a saying us old americans use so no worries.
Didn't think you were with the band. Just posted it if they were tuning in.
Feel free to work on it some more if you have the time. Proves this "old dog" doesn't know squat about mastering eh?
Mike
Shul,
I want to thank you again for all of your time and help. I learned a lot from you and if I can be of any help to you all you have to do is ask and it is yours, for what it is worth. I am going to stick with mixing and leave the mastering to others who have the expertise and tools.
I am working on some things now, some original and some not. Would you be interested in doing some mastering? I don't charge for what I do, sort of like pay back to the industry. Playing in the small club scene is a tough go and there are a lot of great guys and gals out there playing for next to nothing without a lot of cash to invest in gear and most venues are not into making any investments in their live sound reinforcement gear--couple that with the back line volume wars and it is interesting for sure.
Some will not like my mix so I wanted to share my thoughts on some things.
The intent of each song is different and is meant to trigger emotion in the listener. The artists and their producer decide how to achieve it. Which snare, which mic, mic placement on speaker cabs etc--the list goes on and on. Couple this with the avid and soundgrid gear available now for live sound reinforcement and that sound is canned for the most part so the expertise is aimed at reproducing that sound thru the FOH Gear.
Total different world for me. I am used to listening for the energy of the song, understanding the emotion involved and "helping achieve that by enhancing the energy that triggers that emotion thru the FOH to the listener.
Sometimes I do provide feedback to the band but I usually limit that feedback to what I need to do the song justice--Back line volume, proximity effect, volume wars, and mud. Sometimes I offer other opinions but only when asked to do so.
So Its basically "run with what you have".
For all you live guys out there google Dave Ratt. He has a nice method for Live Sound Reinforcement which allows for the control of compression and dynamics on two sliders so you can adjust these for ballads all the way to Rock and Roll. Lots of guys use a hybrid of this--unless of course you have the full blown system where each song is "mastered" ahead of time.
In other words I don't get hung up in the minutia so for sure my mixes are not "perfect". I spend most of my time on the energy side of things.
Just another quick note. Instead of fighting the summing buss use it to your advantage. If you need more kick double the track and bingo more kick without increasing the peaks or overall volume. This is the biggest difference for me between in the box and analog mixing. Analog just doesn't seem to add the same amount of volume when summing as digital. I found that the Density plug--free--set to summing helps get things a little closer between the two.
Anybody have any suggestions as to which mix I should go for next??
11-04-2016, 09:45 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2016, 09:45 PM by Mixinthecloud.)
Sonic,
After reading through your posts and Shul's responses, I wanted to add my two bits to the mix.
First I get the impression you are a small club musician with a lot of experience and maybe a club mixer too. You had made a very good point of trying to capture the energy of a live song which I totally agree with. With that in mind, let me ask this. What is your thinking with the level of the acoustic guitar in the intro to the song? I ask because I don't understand your choice here. Considering there is a heavy electric band delivering a very fat and powerful rhythm section for this song, does the loudness of the acoustic make sense in that context? For me it seems out of kilter and a bit forced and would not make sense in a live sound environment. I struggled with this balance myself because the acoustic, especially with some nice verb on it, sounds really good. Ultimately though, I had to temper my decision based on the realities of the power of the instruments in the mix and could not justify having the acoustic so hot. That is the kind of decision making needed throughout a song in order to capture either a sense of reality, or in total contrast, a very false reality. Deciding which way to go in a song is a big decision and determines the entire character of a mix. I'm not sure I heard a commitment from you in your mix. If I can use a golf analogy, you've got to commit to a shot in order to hit it. Failing to do so will ultimately put you off target.
Certainly, you have shown extraordinary growth in your mixing. My suggestion is to listen carefully to what you've been given and pick a direction you feel for a song and go after it. Listen to mixes which might be similar. For this song, Santana comes to mind. You are not going to hit the fairway with every shot you take. It took me 18 mixes of this song before I got anywhere close to where I wanted it to be. If this was a paying gig, I'd have gotten fired but thankfully here, it is for fun and education. Keep up the good work.
(11-04-2016, 09:45 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: Sonic,
After reading through your posts and Shul's responses, I wanted to add my two bits to the mix.
First I get the impression you are a small club musician with a lot of experience and maybe a club mixer too. You had made a very good point of trying to capture the energy of a live song which I totally agree with. With that in mind, let me ask this. What is your thinking with the level of the acoustic guitar in the intro to the song? I ask because I don't understand your choice here. Considering there is a heavy electric band delivering a very fat and powerful rhythm section for this song, does the loudness of the acoustic make sense in that context? For me it seems out of kilter and a bit forced and would not make sense in a live sound environment. I struggled with this balance myself because the acoustic, especially with some nice verb on it, sounds really good. Ultimately though, I had to temper my decision based on the realities of the power of the instruments in the mix and could not justify having the acoustic so hot. That is the kind of decision making needed throughout a song in order to capture either a sense of reality, or in total contrast, a very false reality. Deciding which way to go in a song is a big decision and determines the entire character of a mix. I'm not sure I heard a commitment from you in your mix. If I can use a golf analogy, you've got to commit to a shot in order to hit it. Failing to do so will ultimately put you off target.
Certainly, you have shown extraordinary growth in your mixing. My suggestion is to listen carefully to what you've been given and pick a direction you feel for a song and go after it. Listen to mixes which might be similar. For this song, Santana comes to mind. You are not going to hit the fairway with every shot you take. It took me 18 mixes of this song before I got anywhere close to where I wanted it to be. If this was a paying gig, I'd have gotten fired but thankfully here, it is for fun and education. Keep up the good work.
Greetings,
Here is my thinking:
Without the luxury of talking with the artists I had to take a stab at what I felt they were after. Listening to the Acoustic Track along with the Percussion Track it seemed to me that they were after a blend of the Spanish Gypsy music culture and the Electric Rock music Culture--which is why I chose this song in the first place as I really like both styles.
In the live scene there is not much cat gut acoustic as the feedback issues and such are a real PITA--most guys don't have the right gear or backline disipline to pull this off. So not much experience with them.
Most probably I went a little bit much towards the Spanish Gypsy but I found that going a little much on the Electric Rock smothered the other.
(11-04-2016, 09:45 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: Sonic,
After reading through your posts and Shul's responses, I wanted to add my two bits to the mix.
First I get the impression you are a small club musician with a lot of experience and maybe a club mixer too. You had made a very good point of trying to capture the energy of a live song which I totally agree with. With that in mind, let me ask this. What is your thinking with the level of the acoustic guitar in the intro to the song? I ask because I don't understand your choice here. Considering there is a heavy electric band delivering a very fat and powerful rhythm section for this song, does the loudness of the acoustic make sense in that context? For me it seems out of kilter and a bit forced and would not make sense in a live sound environment. I struggled with this balance myself because the acoustic, especially with some nice verb on it, sounds really good. Ultimately though, I had to temper my decision based on the realities of the power of the instruments in the mix and could not justify having the acoustic so hot. That is the kind of decision making needed throughout a song in order to capture either a sense of reality, or in total contrast, a very false reality. Deciding which way to go in a song is a big decision and determines the entire character of a mix. I'm not sure I heard a commitment from you in your mix. If I can use a golf analogy, you've got to commit to a shot in order to hit it. Failing to do so will ultimately put you off target.
Certainly, you have shown extraordinary growth in your mixing. My suggestion is to listen carefully to what you've been given and pick a direction you feel for a song and go after it. Listen to mixes which might be similar. For this song, Santana comes to mind. You are not going to hit the fairway with every shot you take. It took me 18 mixes of this song before I got anywhere close to where I wanted it to be. If this was a paying gig, I'd have gotten fired but thankfully here, it is for fun and education. Keep up the good work.
Greetings,
Here is my thinking:
Without the luxury of talking with the artists I had to take a stab at what I felt they were after. Listening to the Acoustic Track along with the Percussion Track it seemed to me that they were after a blend of the Spanish Gypsy music culture and the Electric Rock music Culture--which is why I chose this song in the first place as I really like both styles.
In the live scene there is not much cat gut acoustic as the feedback issues and such are a real PITA--most guys don't have the right gear or backline disipline to pull this off. So not much experience with them.
Most probably I went a little bit much towards the Spanish Gypsy but I found that going a little much on the Electric Rock smothered the other.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Mike
Exactly. A Spanish guitar at that level against a heavy electric rhythm section it is just not a realistic expectation. I don't think I heard an ensemble of conga and percussion and Spanish guitar with a subtle backing of electric rhythm section in your mix, but I will listen again.
