22-03-2016, 03:33 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016, 06:06 AM by Shul.)
Now with More clarity and space you are now gonna look for Volume irregularities.
Checking for volume irregularities is the first step to mixing. You usually do this at the very beginning, something we call Balancing.
However when you are Eq'ing sometimes that balance you had doesn't work for that particular Eq setting. Basically you keep balancing through out the
whole mixing process. Balancing is the back bone of the word mix. For songs, the back bone sometimes are drums, or guitars, or vocals.. etc.. but when it comes to mixing Balancing will ALWAYS be the back bone in terms of theory.
Can't emphasize on how important balancing is Lol I'm still polishing that technique my self, it's a real art in it's own.
I notice some irregularities in your volumes.
*intro right guitar feels too loud
*Center acoustic solo feels louder in relation with the Right guitar.
*Snare feels burried in the back in relation with the kick, which is up front.
*Kick feels a bit louder than the main vocal (as a result of all volume irregularities, you get this perspective)
Note how I use the word FEEL. Sometimes your volume might not be as loud or as quiet when soloed, but with the rest of the mix playing APPARENT volume will always change. APPARENT eq will too. APPARENT fxs will too. That's why I like to use the word "feel" lol
To fix all of this You need to pick 1 or 2 or 3 instruments or tracks to give you limitations as to how much loud or quiet the rest of the instruments should be.
I would suggest you pick the voice.
*Loop a section of the song, for example 1st verse. and lower all faders except the voice.
*Track by track and slowly pull up each fader and make sure it's volume is not masking the vocal, it's not way louder than the vocal, it's not so quiet that you can't hear it enough. Could be at the same level of the vocal, but never way too loud or way too quiet.
*continue pulling up the faders and for every fader you pull up, compare it's volume relation with the rest of the tracks you already pulled up till you are done pulling up all the tracks that are playing.
when you are done with this.. unloop the section and restart the song.
This time don't touch the tracks you just balanced, instead pull up the faders you have not (which could be instruments that only play at the beginning, or somewhere in the middle, or at the very end) and Do so in relation with the rest of the mix you already have in place.
When you are done with this... go listen to a different song or something, take a break. Then come back here.. listen to your latest revision and now compare it to the one you just did. Specifically pay attention to all the volume differences you now have when you pick a track as volume to volume relation to the rest.
Dang this is the most writing I've done in this site Lol Hope other people are reading these basic tips for balancing.
P.s. Everything above is Just a starting point on balancing. Some mixes will require something being a bit louder .. or sometimes way too quiet, a Pad synth for example, an organ or piano perhaps.. or FX of some kind. This will come to you eventually, as you get a better grasp of balancing you will make these type of decisions but for this particular song, what I described will work charms.
Glad to see you are progressing! Well done to the rest of the guys for helping, too!
Regarding balancing, what I do, which you might find helpfull is this:
* All faders to lowest level
* Bring up the kick so that I get around 10dB of headroom on the master.
* Bring up the snare so that it has the same apparent volume (see above post from Shul) as the kick.
* Do the same for bass.
Buy doing that I make sure that the rhythm section stands out. The snare is indeed one of the most prominent components in the mix. After that, I continue adding the rest of the instruments and finaly the vocals.
Note that building a mix can be done in many ways. You could start with the overheads instead and use the rest of the drum mics to add definition. You could start from the vocals like Shul suggested. Whichever track you use as the starting point will usually be more prominent in your mix in the end, so I guess the way you build your mix depends on the music genre as well.
After I get an initial balance and panning, I start compressing and EQing. It is important to rebalance here, if needed, since compression and EQ, might through your balance of a bit.
One final note regarding kick and bass muddyness is this: I EQ out everything bellow 25 - 30Hz on the kick and I am quite aggressive cutting in the area above 100 - 150Hz. Then for the base I cut everything below 80 - 90. Additionally, I might boost the kick in the high mids a bit to get that click. I am a fan of more clicky kicks and bass so take this with a grain of salt and sweep for the right freqs, the numbers here are just an idea.
Hope I helped and if I said something wrong please correct me!
(22-03-2016, 03:41 AM)Shul Wrote: P.s. Everything above is Just a starting point on balancing. Some mixes will require something being a bit louder .. or sometimes way too quiet, a Pad synth for example, an organ or piano perhaps.. or FX of some kind. This will come to you eventually, as you get a better grasp of balancing you will make these type of decisions but for this particular song, what I described will work charms.
Shul,
I really appreciate all of your, as well and everyones, help.
A little background. I am a semi retired live sound engineer--i still help with some of the local bands for free. So my life has been trying to get the guys to control the backline volume and dealing with Left Center Right mixing. The gear ranged from nice Yamaha digital to not so nice analog stuff. so everything has been about compromise and very quick choices as sound check is pretty much a joke mainly for levels and feedback supression.
Your posts have made me change the way I think about mixing and I am very grateful for your time. It is real nice to have so much control over everything. I even changed my studio--an extra bedroom--a tad to let me hear the separation better.
Enough blabber. I did exactly what you said and things just seemed to fall into place much easier at least for me. I divide things up into a mix buss and render this and then go to my master buss where the widening and such happens. Don't know if this is good or not but it seems to work for me. A little more work but things seem to come out better.
I really like this song. Great job by the band and whoever tracked the stems. Makes things much easier for sure to work with great talent and a great job of tracking. I only wish that I could say the same for what I usually deal with but its mostly local bands and tis for free.
23-03-2016, 01:43 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016, 01:54 AM by Shul.)
(22-03-2016, 08:48 PM)sonicenergystudio Wrote: Anyhow take a listen and let me know whats next
Mike
Somehow Rev5 sounds with more reverb than Rev4 (on drums)... did you mess with any eq or Reverb other than the balancing? Because Rev5 reverb is making your mix somewhat foggy on the drums.
The Balance though, it's more even. The peaks in volume feel better and smoother.
Let's leave the balance as is for now.
The next thing here is the drums ( which need a complete chapter in the book Lol)
They are one of the hardest thing to mix and get a good sound for the reason of mic bleed and phase problems.
I notice your drums need better Eq'ing to clean them up as there are many frequencies that are sounding messi when together.
I will provide a track of my drum mix with and without Verb so you get a better Idea as to how a drum mix sounds raw and how ti sounds after reverb work.
I'm not saying it's the best sound but It's pretty decent given the fact that this is GREAT recording. Plus toms were pre balanced in a stereo track.
*Raw NO OVERHEADS
Just for you to hear how much difference the overheads make, which I believe is the most important mic in a drum recording because they capture the complete kit with it's natural resonances and personality. Also it captures the ambiance of them wereas the independent mics just capture pure tone.
*Raw WITH OVERHEADS
A major "life resusitation" happens Lol. Note how the tones change when overheads added.
*Processed NO OVERHEADS
Wanted to give you this reference because in a mix, one would think the toms and snare and kick all have that sound with a Eq setting, when in reality the "apparent" sound or tonality is given by the Overheads.
NOTE how dull and weird they sound with no overheads
-kick: Eq.. (highpassed on 30Hz, Cut on 240hz of -8db, boost on 4kHz of 3db)and Compression to taste after.
-Snare: Eq... (Highpass at 130Hz, cut at 870hz of -24db because that's an ugly ringing freq., ) and Compression to taste after
-Toms: I put an Expander to get rid of some bleed from hihat, snare, etc
Eq... (HighPass at 59hz, cut on 550hz of -20db, Boost at 110hz of -3db)
Compression to taste after
-OverHeads: Eq... (Highpass at 30Hz, Boost with Shelf Q at 4khz of +2)
This track is muted here, but that's my processed track though.
*Processed WITH OVERHEADS
Now you can hear that the weird sound actually sound pretty solid and good with the overheads now applied.
This is just so you have a more exact reference to why my drums sound like that. I'm not saying you have to eq like that. Use the Eq as you see fit. Everything is subjective to taste here.
The point of the different tracks is for you to see how different independent mics sound in comparison with having or not having Overheads.
***Last is the Processed WITH REVERB which is also to your taste.
Only two tracks have reverb, the snare and the Overheads. You will find out that beautiful ambiance verb will give you best result on overheads. Snare verb is mostly for tonality or feel you look for.
Apart from that, you can send your drum tracks to a bus which will be Reverb only 100% wet and it will give you different results, but that's another chapter in the book too Lol
Hope my reference track of drums help you get a good drum sound your self.
P.S. Again, most of my explanation you might already know but this thread will also be good tips for new comers Some people learn more by hearing examples than by reading what to do and why.
I should write a book hahaha
Saludos
(22-03-2016, 05:53 AM)gkallergis Wrote: Glad to see you are progressing! Well done to the rest of the guys for helping, too!
Regarding balancing, what I do, which you might find helpfull is this:
* All faders to lowest level
* Bring up the kick so that I get around 10dB of headroom on the master.
* Bring up the snare so that it has the same apparent volume (see above post from Shul) as the kick.
* Do the same for bass.
Buy doing that I make sure that the rhythm section stands out. The snare is indeed one of the most prominent components in the mix. After that, I continue adding the rest of the instruments and finaly the vocals.
Note that building a mix can be done in many ways. You could start with the overheads instead and use the rest of the drum mics to add definition. You could start from the vocals like Shul suggested. Whichever track you use as the starting point will usually be more prominent in your mix in the end, so I guess the way you build your mix depends on the music genre as well.
After I get an initial balance and panning, I start compressing and EQing. It is important to rebalance here, if needed, since compression and EQ, might through your balance of a bit.
One final note regarding kick and bass muddyness is this: I EQ out everything bellow 25 - 30Hz on the kick and I am quite aggressive cutting in the area above 100 - 150Hz. Then for the base I cut everything below 80 - 90. Additionally, I might boost the kick in the high mids a bit to get that click. I am a fan of more clicky kicks and bass so take this with a grain of salt and sweep for the right freqs, the numbers here are just an idea.
Hope I helped and if I said something wrong please correct me!
Cheers!
Greetings from Texas!
I come from the live music scene for sure which is a totally different ball game for sure, which I am learning now for sure.
Live music is all about the low end as most decent FOH reinforcement comes with the magic "sub". Low end gets people dancing which gets people drinking which makes the venue MONEY! To drive those subs there needs to be enough low end energy in the mix. I learned this when playing music thru the FOH during the breaks. I set up a quick Master Buss--my first involvement with the world of the DAW--and mixed all the mp3s we were going to use to increase the low end energy so that when played thru the FOH and the subs the energy was there. So I duck the base with a side chain from the kick to clear the lower end--from about 30hz( the high pass on the bass) to about 100 to 150hz depending on the sound of the kick. Keeps the low end working.
I also usually double track the kick, sending one right up the middle and the other one with a send to the drum room reverb which is panned from about 20% Right and Left to about 90% Right and Left depending on the type of music. easy to keep the energy of the kick without increasing the volume. Both tracks are at about -18db to -12db on the k-20 scale.
the Pushtec free plug has a real nice setting called "monster kick" which I use a lot as well as the Blockfish compresor set on "Kick".
took me a long time to figurre out how to make the kick nice without overpowering the mix--but alas I still overpower it sometimes just because I like it!!
I still think that my latest mix is a little weak on the kick but I have bowed to my Teacher--Shul--on this one.
Have a listen to REV5 and let me know what you think.
(22-03-2016, 08:48 PM)sonicenergystudio Wrote: Anyhow take a listen and let me know whats next
Mike
Somehow Rev5 sounds with more reverb than Rev4 (on drums)... did you mess with any eq or Reverb other than the balancing? Because Rev5 reverb is making your mix somewhat foggy on the drums.
The Balance though, it's more even. The peaks in volume feel better and smoother.
Let's leave the balance as is for now.
The next thing here is the drums ( which need a complete chapter in the book Lol)
They are one of the hardest thing to mix and get a good sound for the reason of mic bleed and phase problems.
I notice your drums need better Eq'ing to clean them up as there are many frequencies that are sounding messi when together.
I will provide a track of my drum mix with and without Verb so you get a better Idea as to how a drum mix sounds raw and how ti sounds after reverb work.
I'm not saying it's the best sound but It's pretty decent given the fact that this is GREAT recording. Plus toms were pre balanced in a stereo track.
*Raw NO OVERHEADS
Just for you to hear how much difference the overheads make, which I believe is the most important mic in a drum recording because they capture the complete kit with it's natural resonances and personality. Also it captures the ambiance of them wereas the independent mics just capture pure tone.
*Raw WITH OVERHEADS
A major "life resusitation" happens Lol. Note how the tones change when overheads added.
*Processed NO OVERHEADS
Wanted to give you this reference because in a mix, one would think the toms and snare and kick all have that sound with a Eq setting, when in reality the "apparent" sound or tonality is given by the Overheads.
NOTE how dull and weird they sound with no overheads
-kick: Eq.. (highpassed on 30Hz, Cut on 240hz of -8db, boost on 4kHz of 3db)and Compression to taste after.
-Snare: Eq... (Highpass at 130Hz, cut at 870hz of -24db because that's an ugly ringing freq., ) and Compression to taste after
-Toms: I put an Expander to get rid of some bleed from hihat, snare, etc
Eq... (HighPass at 59hz, cut on 550hz of -20db, Boost at 110hz of -3db)
Compression to taste after
-OverHeads: Eq... (Highpass at 30Hz, Boost with Shelf Q at 4khz of +2)
This track is muted here, but that's my processed track though.
*Processed WITH OVERHEADS
Now you can hear that the weird sound actually sound pretty solid and good with the overheads now applied.
This is just so you have a more exact reference to why my drums sound like that. I'm not saying you have to eq like that. Use the Eq as you see fit. Everything is subjective to taste here.
The point of the different tracks is for you to see how different independent mics sound in comparison with having or not having Overheads.
***Last is the Processed WITH REVERB which is also to your taste.
Only two tracks have reverb, the snare and the Overheads. You will find out that beautiful ambiance verb will give you best result on overheads. Snare verb is mostly for tonality or feel you look for.
Apart from that, you can send your drum tracks to a bus which will be Reverb only 100% wet and it will give you different results, but that's another chapter in the book too Lol
Hope my reference track of drums help you get a good drum sound your self.
P.S. Again, most of my explanation you might already know but this thread will also be good tips for new comers Some people learn more by hearing examples than by reading what to do and why.
I should write a book hahaha
Saludos
Shul,
all of your opinions and input is welcome and important to me. I am finding out that there is a bit more difference between live sound and mixing than I anticipated. The tracks will help greatly but I am a little over the limit this evening so I will give a listen tomorrow morning, they will help to re train my ears to this brave new world.
But alas, I will most probably end up somewhere in the middle which is the result of learning no?
I have already cut some things on the snare and the toms to take away some of the bleed but will open my eyes with your stems.
I always tend to overdo the reverb on all my mixes--that dam live sound thing again--so I will try to use less.
I have to say that when I like a song I get carried away with the energy which probably is not a good thing in the mix world but I want the song to make me want to move and drink another pint.
(22-03-2016, 08:48 PM)sonicenergystudio Wrote: Anyhow take a listen and let me know whats next
Mike
Somehow Rev5 sounds with more reverb than Rev4 (on drums)... did you mess with any eq or Reverb other than the balancing? Because Rev5 reverb is making your mix somewhat foggy on the drums.
The Balance though, it's more even. The peaks in volume feel better and smoother.
Let's leave the balance as is for now.
The next thing here is the drums ( which need a complete chapter in the book Lol)
They are one of the hardest thing to mix and get a good sound for the reason of mic bleed and phase problems.
I notice your drums need better Eq'ing to clean them up as there are many frequencies that are sounding messi when together.
I will provide a track of my drum mix with and without Verb so you get a better Idea as to how a drum mix sounds raw and how ti sounds after reverb work.
I'm not saying it's the best sound but It's pretty decent given the fact that this is GREAT recording. Plus toms were pre balanced in a stereo track.
*Raw NO OVERHEADS
Just for you to hear how much difference the overheads make, which I believe is the most important mic in a drum recording because they capture the complete kit with it's natural resonances and personality. Also it captures the ambiance of them wereas the independent mics just capture pure tone.
*Raw WITH OVERHEADS
A major "life resusitation" happens Lol. Note how the tones change when overheads added.
*Processed NO OVERHEADS
Wanted to give you this reference because in a mix, one would think the toms and snare and kick all have that sound with a Eq setting, when in reality the "apparent" sound or tonality is given by the Overheads.
NOTE how dull and weird they sound with no overheads
-kick: Eq.. (highpassed on 30Hz, Cut on 240hz of -8db, boost on 4kHz of 3db)and Compression to taste after.
-Snare: Eq... (Highpass at 130Hz, cut at 870hz of -24db because that's an ugly ringing freq., ) and Compression to taste after
-Toms: I put an Expander to get rid of some bleed from hihat, snare, etc
Eq... (HighPass at 59hz, cut on 550hz of -20db, Boost at 110hz of -3db)
Compression to taste after
-OverHeads: Eq... (Highpass at 30Hz, Boost with Shelf Q at 4khz of +2)
This track is muted here, but that's my processed track though.
*Processed WITH OVERHEADS
Now you can hear that the weird sound actually sound pretty solid and good with the overheads now applied.
This is just so you have a more exact reference to why my drums sound like that. I'm not saying you have to eq like that. Use the Eq as you see fit. Everything is subjective to taste here.
The point of the different tracks is for you to see how different independent mics sound in comparison with having or not having Overheads.
***Last is the Processed WITH REVERB which is also to your taste.
Only two tracks have reverb, the snare and the Overheads. You will find out that beautiful ambiance verb will give you best result on overheads. Snare verb is mostly for tonality or feel you look for.
Apart from that, you can send your drum tracks to a bus which will be Reverb only 100% wet and it will give you different results, but that's another chapter in the book too Lol
Hope my reference track of drums help you get a good drum sound your self.
P.S. Again, most of my explanation you might already know but this thread will also be good tips for new comers Some people learn more by hearing examples than by reading what to do and why.
I should write a book hahaha
Saludos
Shul,
all of your opinions and input is welcome and important to me. I am finding out that there is a bit more difference between live sound and mixing than I anticipated. The tracks will help greatly but I am a little over the limit this evening so I will give a listen tomorrow morning, they will help to re train my ears to this brave new world.
But alas, I will most probably end up somewhere in the middle which is the result of learning no?
I have already cut some things on the snare and the toms to take away some of the bleed but will open my eyes with your stems.
I always tend to overdo the reverb on all my mixes--that dam live sound thing again--so I will try to use less.
I have to say that when I like a song I get carried away with the energy which probably is not a good thing in the mix world but I want the song to make me want to move and drink another pint.
anyhow don't give up on me. I shall try my best.
Mike
Ps
I wish for a separate track for the Hihat and to bottom of the snare. also separate tracks for each rack and floor tom. Would make life grand on the drum kit.
also a separate track for the lead electric guitar instead of combined with the rythm electric.I split them into separate tracks but then had to automate the acoustic rythm pan to make up for the missing volume.
The stems you provided were a great help. Thank you for taking the time to render them.
Here is the latest mix. As usual I toyed with things other than the drums as I just can't help myself.
On the drums:
Snare: Eq close to yours and added compression. that good ol blockfish--my fav for drums.
Kick: left things pretty much the same but added the high boost.
Toms: Don't have much experience with expanders so I just adjusted the low pass a little to let a little more of the HiHat hit thru and added a high pas and some compression.
Percussion: added a tad of low pass to take some of the shrill away and added a tad of compression. Also my level is a tad more than yours but I like that Latin feel.
Overheads: I use the Nova67P with the overhead preset. Gets things in the ballpark quick with a little tweaking. S I left them as is.
Drum Room Reverb. Lowered the send level from the Kick quite a bit-me thinks that was the mud culprit. and lowered the overall level a tad.
I know your are going to say "Holy S__t" on the bass level increase. I usually wait until the end of things to bump this up to where this old live sound guy likes it.
Alas I lowered the lead guitar levels some to balance the overall level some more.
Did lots of other things but I will wait undil I hear your comments before getting into all that.
Hope this finds you well and take a listen if you have the time.
All decisions completely respected as they are 100% done based on your taste and what you are aiming for in a mix.
That's why I can't tell you specifically "this is what you HAVE to do" because your taste and perspective are different from mine.
I do live sound on my church as well and I totally know what you mean. I'm used to eq the drums a certain way in my computer but when in comes to live sound is all about "the room" the gig is playing in. Punchy and big bass reference is great in a live gig. Over the years I have learn how to apply the two different perspectives. I totally understand why you are looking for that particular sound, no worries
About the separate tracks: Unfortunately the same tracks you have, I have. We can't really split the snare bottom from top.. or the hi hat in a separate track. That's how the stems were supplied to us in the forum. We can't separate any track into independent tracks that easily. I still have not discovered how to do that in my Daw so therefore I can't tell you how it's done, or supply them to you. We gonna have to do it this way.
Ok now the Version 6. Unfortunately I now think Version 5 sounds better than 6 for the reasons I will mention.
*V5 feels cleaner than V6. Reasons for this I believe is the changes in volume of some instruments and its eq as well. Just overall listening to it.
*I don't hear the kick as much. Could be the bass is too loud as you mentioned hehehe. Or it could also be the limiter you are placing on master bus is compressing too much and at parts the mix feels squashed.
*overall processing is a bit too enhanced in comparison to V5.
Not saying it's completely awful, but I do find V5 to be better sounding than 6.
Having said that I think "not helping your self" from tweaking things here and there could be a disadvantage, but then again, that's why all these multitracks are being supplied. To practice and to feast in all these awesome music.
I would advise that you would upload your mix without the limiter in the master bus or whatever it is you are using to get a loud volume, don't use it and upload it to see how it sounds without it. May be your limiter is causing some changes in the overall mix. I don't mind turning my speakers up to get a good volume on my side of the screen, as long as I'm listening to your mix without the loudness.
