Justin Myles - Shortened arrangement (mix now posted)

[mick2015]

From an arrangement perspective, this edit is quite effective as a pseudo-radio mix (but not mixed, of course!). My only suggestion is that the placement of the backing vocals seems quite odd, as it has completely blanketed the tasteful guitar solo.

[The_Metallurgist]

You ripped Till a new one about a master that sounded good, sure it was hot and compressed sounding, it still had dynamics

i think you're referring to this mix here?
http://www.discussion.cambridge-mt.com/s...6#pid38036

some "loudness war" statistics for you, which i've obtained from his mix:

Integrated loudness -6.4LUFS
Momentary Loudness -4.3
Short term loudness -4.7
True Peak +1.2

the target for iTunes SoundCheck playback loudness leveller is -16.5LUFS integrated. the mix you refer to would be attenuated by about 10LU's in order to bring it's subjective loudness in line with a more dynamic mix of -16.5 Integrated Loudness...which in the old days would equate to roughly a reduction in level of -10dB against a dynamic mix. that's like turning the volume down by 50 percent to achieve a similar perceived loudness against a dynamic mix.

over-compressed material sounds dull and lifeless, as @Berket's post herein accurately testifies, and this is exactly the problem with Till's mix. too many in the forum equate "loudness with goodness"; it's easy to understand how the loudness war got out of hand as record companies tried their best to appear louder than the competition. in the light of International Standards like EBU R128 here in Europe, and BS 1770 elsewhere (they are near identical), THERE'S NOTHING TO BE GAINED FROM PRODUCING A HOT MIX/MASTER.....but there's a lot to lose!!

to get things a little in perspective, Metallica's Death Magnetic which made a lot of fuss a while ago, had an integrated loudness of approximately -4LUFS. so, your mate's mix is only -2.4dB's less loud than Metallica's.

you should also note the True Peak value.....his mix was clipping it's guts out and causing distortion through my DAC and killing my speakers.

now, i'd love to mix Sleep by Fire, but the trouble is, in the recording's current state, it's NOT POSSIBLE to achieve a good sounding dynamic mix because he's smashed the tracking to bits. i don't know if his mix was INTENTIONALLY MIXED HOT IN ORDER TO SOUND IMPRESSIVE and pump the band's image up in the forum, but irrespective of this, he's not helping to educate people here in the forum with regards to dynamics and the use of appropriate compression. and his feedback which complements people despite them posting equally hot mixes, is actually counter productive to today's drive for BETTER QUALITY AUDIO.

as we say in Quality Management, "Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution".

i will say, however, that there are situations where over-compression or hot mixes are seen by many to be a creative feature of a particular sound and genre. what worries me about these opinions is that such mixes are HIGHLY FATIGUING to listen to. they might sound impressive on the first listen, but research has proven that people don't play it as often as they would a dynamic mix. the first thing i do when confronted with a hot mix is to turn the volume down which only makes the material sound lifeless. dynamic mixes sound fantastic when they are turned up, however.

i hope this helps, because i'm feeling a little weary from swimming against the tide now.

don't shoot the messenger, eh? and there's no need to get defensive because i'm not attacking anyone, i'm simply trying to get an important point across. have a go at doing a mix without ANY compressors.....it's a good experience.
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[The_Metallurgist]

From an arrangement perspective, this edit is quite effective as a pseudo-radio mix (but not mixed, of course!). My only suggestion is that the placement of the backing vocals seems quite odd, as it has completely blanketed the tasteful guitar solo.

i completely agree about the BV's here....i dropped them there following an early impulse. the mix is near finished now, so hopefully when it's posted it will make better sense; i've done rather a lot and advanced the arrangement further, even pitch correcting the LV which i felt was essential - this is a really difficult song to pitch during performance (more so without a song sheet), i wouldn't even brave it in the shower!!

one aspect i'm still not happy about but nevertheless i've gone with...is the intro. it's just a little too quick into the vocal for me. if you drop in laters when the mix is up, i think you'll see what i mean.

thanks for popping in, and especially for suffering the No-mix!
laters,,
BigDave

[dcp10200]

I can appreciate you reasoning about the loudness wars and just smashing everything to bits for no good reason, however, Till gave the trigger track for every close mic on the drums, distorted electric guitars aren't dynamic to begin with, and the vocals are going to need automation and fair amount of compression to smooth them out. The fact that you cam out and just hammered someone and told them that their hearing was damaged and that they are causing others on this forum to go deaf while then saying you're not trying to be confrontational is quite a condescending and pretentious statement. Don't give an excuse as to why you can't mix something, mix it, find out what mistakes you made in the first run though and fix them in the second mix, repeat till you have a good mix. Also listen to Songs for the Deaf by Queens of the Stone Age, that's an example of how loudness wars mastering was used as a creative effect and it actually works really well for the style.

I'm not sure about the genres of music you listen to but I'm assuming that your're main genre isn't punk or metal. Punk rock, Metal, and Hardcore Punk generally are loud and abrasive genres of music and dynamics aren't really the focus of the music. Sleep by the Fire isn't really monotone the whole way through and who says that all the tracks have to be playing the whole way through in your mix, I for example took the guitars, bass, and drum close mics out of the mix to change the musical dynamic of the track up and removed some guitar parts that I felt were unnecessary to make the arrangement more sparse.

Get a new DAC as well, my cheap mbox mini wasn't crapping out on Till's mix and it's not a good DAC whatsoever.

[Bereket]

I don't listen that much this Hard rock or something genre but this music one of my favourite and it has one hell of a dynamic.

[mick2015]

From an arrangement perspective, this edit is quite effective as a pseudo-radio mix (but not mixed, of course!). My only suggestion is that the placement of the backing vocals seems quite odd, as it has completely blanketed the tasteful guitar solo.

i completely agree about the BV's here....i dropped them there following an early impulse. the mix is near finished now, so hopefully when it's posted it will make better sense; i've done rather a lot and advanced the arrangement further, even pitch correcting the LV which i felt was essential - this is a really difficult song to pitch during performance (more so without a song sheet), i wouldn't even brave it in the shower!!

one aspect i'm still not happy about but nevertheless i've gone with...is the intro. it's just a little too quick into the vocal for me. if you drop in laters when the mix is up, i think you'll see what i mean.

thanks for popping in, and especially for suffering the No-mix!
laters,,
BigDave

No worries, Dave. Will be sure to check back on the thread to hear your update. I've just uploaded my mix, keen to get your feedback when you get a chance. I agree that the pitch correction on the LV is definitely needed, alas laziness prevailed in my mix with regard to this LOL.

Cheers,
Mick

[loweche6]

Actually If you guys have noticed even the reference track from Justin Myles him searching for loudness robbed the bass the hell out of it. If you put the music in a normal listening stage, it sounds empty. when you put the volume up everything looks to popup. In fact as I always do I listen in a very lower volume to understand the music and as I did I said to myself, Oh boy an artist plying R&B but looking for Hip hop.

Justin Myles's bass has Character and a give and take with his Electric Guitar on the raw material that we happen to be lucky enough to have it. But I don't even know how he didn't notice in the process of the mastering stage all those thing has been lost. Just because of searching for loudness. And in my POV that will mislead so many engineers in the process of mixing. Is he looking for a loud mix or a character colorful or bringing the feeling of the music out? So confusing right? Making Mix louder is not that much of a big deal the less bottom end the bigger the headroom it will be and it is very sad to see the Acc guitar and the Bass suffer to that. For Justin Myles bringing a loud mix as reference makes it hard to know what he needs.

@The_Metallurgist

Even though what you have written and the mix you have provided is not compatible, It doesn't make it the end of the world. Sometimes what we think and what we do might not be similar but what we felt inside about it is more important cause I believe yo will be a great engineer but it might not be on this mix or the next. And my advice is Keep on mixing and bring your best. Don't take comments personally even though they tend to be personal. Believe in yourself and I believe in you, You will be great mixer. Just keep on mixing.

Hey Bereket,

The reference track is actually mixed by me. It had no mastering process, as he just wanted to see what kind of mix I would make, and said he would like it if I posted the song on here. I threw a limiting amp on the end to bring the volume up to a comparable level, but didn't think I had destroyed the dynamics of the song at lower levels. But, you live, you learn, and I will be more cognizant of it in the future (however I do make sure I vary my volume knob when I mix). Thanks for the input!

Draper

[The_Metallurgist]

Your dissertation leads me to believe you would make an excellent studio maintenance technician. As a mixer, not so much.

this is my reply:

http://www.discussion.cambridge-mt.com/s...0#pid44020

[The_Metallurgist]

Actually If you guys have noticed even the reference track from Justin Myles him searching for loudness robbed the bass the hell out of it. If you put the music in a normal listening stage, it sounds empty. when you put the volume up everything looks to popup. In fact as I always do I listen in a very lower volume to understand the music and as I did I said to myself, Oh boy an artist plying R&B but looking for Hip hop.

i simply thought he was a guy who lives for music and had a go at doing his own recordings within his own personal, individual constraints and within the constraints of the signal chain available to him (including the room acoustic issues), like many multi's in the MDL.

in doing so, he's given us a challenge, a challenge to understand what the issues are within the tracking while doing our best to produce something as good as we can with those materials...and have fun working it.

as regards your R&B vs Hip-hop note, i'd say "Who cares?"; he's the artist.....it's what he does and how he presents it to the world is all that matters surely, not what we think or understand or interpret. so, mix it how you like....take a pot-shot at what you think he might like...or simply go wild and explore your plug-in collection

Is he looking for a loud mix or a character colorful or bringing the feeling of the music out? So confusing right?.............. For Justin Myles bringing a loud mix as reference makes it hard to know what he needs.

i totally disagree. it's not a reference mix....it's simply a posted mix to give us all an idea of what the song sounds like before we go to all the effort of downloading it and dumping it in our DAW.

we are not here to give the artist what he wants, and "only a fool would try and make that assessment from an mp3", to quote Izhaki. it's not a brief, it has no value. so, if we open our minds, we can do our own interpretations as FREE THINKING mixing engineers and simply do a mix from our own personal interpretation and ideas and values....without judgement as to whether the Artist likes it or dislikes it. let's not forget, that in this forum, the artist, if he/she/they are around to pass comment and opinions (+90 percent aren't because they don't care or don't exist any more), are only making a subjective assessment based on their own tastes. some can take that and try and deliver it (nothing wrong with that, of course, if they feel this is one of their goals), but others, like myself, prefer the freedom to experiment and explore without the constraints....i get constraints every day of my life, and it's cool to have this freedom.

@The_Metallurgist
Even though what you have written and the mix you have provided is not compatible............

IT'S NOT A MIX!!!!!!!!
I HAVEN"T MIXED IT YET!!!!!

READ THE LAST GREEN SENTENCE OF MY POST.

OH PLEASE, IT ISN'T EVEN STEREOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

LOL

[Bereket]

ok Cheers