(21-04-2024, 05:51 PM)Shul Wrote: I would suggest you stay away from the master bus for now and just break down compression on individual tracks. Personally I make a mix bus for drums,(snare,toms,kick,overheads) bass(sometimes 3 tracks), guitars(2 tracks in stereo), and use compression those. Rule of thumb when using compressors on a mix bus or master bus... Don't compress too much. Every track group in there gets affected to a degree when compressing too much.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I recorded a video of me mixing a rough mix years ago. That's just my way of mixing but on min 7 I work on drums. Maybe you can get something useful out of it.
I went back and did a complete redo, the story of my life . Spent a whole lot of time on the toms trying to tame it down. The tail ends was hard to work with. Was able to bring the drums forward, even with the constant pounding toms. Worked on the balance of the guitars more, especially the lead guitar. I don't know if it's a hit or a miss .
(03-05-2024, 08:11 PM)SonicTramp Wrote: I went back and did a complete redo, the story of my life . Spent a whole lot of time on the toms trying to tame it down. The tail ends was hard to work with. Was able to bring the drums forward, even with the constant pounding toms. Worked on the balance of the guitars more, especially the lead guitar. I don't know if it's a hit or a miss .
v2 voice is better than v3.
On v3 the drums sound with more snap but they are too loud. Also the top end is over emphasized. not sure if your ear got fatigued and by the end of your session you boosted too much?
Less is better.. for example whatever you think should be boosted, just boost less than that.. if you are cutting out stuff, whatever you think should be cut, cut less than what you think... Compression too.Whatever you think should be compressing, compress less than that. Just a friendly beginner tip that served me well when learning.
This is just an example of the drums I had on the song. Top end can't be crazy high in relation to the rest of the frequencies or else it sounds too "pointy" or "sharp"
@Shul. Thanks for the comment, man. I was trying to get the drums to sit nicely in the mix but prob over did it. I looked over it (after reading your comment) and thought a couple things could have been better handled. I also shouldn't try to save editing time by using the same mix, as it turned out, I should have taken a closer look. I think I know what caused my eq moves to go berserk .
The ear fatigue could be a major factor too. I still don't know how to battle it except taking more breaks and listen in lower volume. The problem is every time after the break, it never seems a continuation of the process. And listen in lower volume (70-75dB-ish) makes it hard for me to balance, both freq and levels. I'll keep trying and see if I can figure out a way. Thanks for taking the time to critique, bro. I don't mind your pointing out my mistakes bc I know you want to help me, which in itself is already a noble thing to do. Tbh, what truly worries me is my ability to recognize/solve the problems. So yeah, man, fire away! . I'll work on it more. Thanks.
So, your mix (V3) directly presents a certain number of faults.
I listened to it on a number of listening systems including the car, in which your mix is really disappointing. Just by looking at certain figures (but this is not the most important), you have a TruePeak of + 1 dB (while it should be negative) and a loudness of only 3.8 LU which explains (partly ) the really compressed side and without any dynamics of your mix.
Having said that, the general balance is really debatable: above ALL your mix I hear the electric guitar (guitar 1 track 17) and I only hear it. In the other direction, the voices are downright undermixed: barely audible. Your sound space is too restricted (toms almost in mono). In fact, your general atmosphere is more "rock" oriented while it is a rather "cool" song, "folk-pop" atmosphere. Now, it's your choice that I respect.
You are still far from the original mix, which I find a little muffled and overdone in terms of general dynamics (abuse of cleverly hidden compressors) but which delivers a fairly artificial sound (noise-gate effects).
Sorry for being so harsh. But if it can possibly be useful...
@Francis. Thanks, man, for the comment. I can almost feel the love oozing out of you by listening to my sucky mix on multiple systems to come to that conclusion. Nobody ever did that. Sometimes being able to recognize the bad to avoid is also a good thing too, you know. And it's much quicker and more efficient if someone just points it out for you. Sure, man. I'll fix whatever you think is wrong that I can understand and agree. Some, if not most, go right over my head. Those prob will be unresolved for the time being until I understand more.
For example, "you have a TruePeak of + 1 dB (while it should be negative)," correct me if I am wrong (quite often actually), and according to the good lord, if you hit over 0 you will create digital distortion and the distorted signal must be audible (how else can we determine that, right?), unless, I guess, it's so brief that the ears have trouble detecting it. If that is the case, signal is distorted but not audible, the question becomes: do we really care? or better yet should we care? I ask bc that can only mean my mix is distorted, at least at some places, and must be audible, that I missed. Tbh, I do not detect that. If you can be more precise in location and detail, I may be able to learn something new from your comment. That's the idea, right? For me to learn something from you.
And another one: and a loudness of only 3.8 LU which explains (partly ) the really compressed side and without any dynamics of your mix. That one completely went over my head. I don't understand why 3.8 ("only" told me I should have more) LU explains the behaviors of the compression and dynamics. Can you elaborate? If this is relevant to my mixing skill, I am interested in knowing more about it. I don't see the relationship tho your comment implied there may be one.
The gist of your critique, I gather, is: guitar too loud. Vox too low. Toms not wide enough. Mix too rock-ish. Less compression. They don't sound too scary to me . I love this song. I don't mind doing it over and over until I get it right. That's the idea, right?
Thank you for reading me and bravo for your open-mindedness, Cambridge MT should be a place of exchange and knowledge. I didn't smile while listening to your mix. I respect everyone's work. But I was still surprised by this mix which accumulates technical faults (I'll come to that later) and questionable artistic choices (yes your mix, a bit forced, sounds more rock than folk).
On the technical side, you perfectly understood the theory of LUfs. Yes, dB above zero can cause problems in certain circumstances. Is this audible? It all depends on the style of music. Currently in the pop-rock-folk field, we persist in wanting to "dirty" the sound of digital origin to rather "sound" analog. So... In a good number of titles (even those produced by large studios) the sound is quite questionable and these audio standards are absolutely not taken into account. This is not important given the (questionable) quality of the final result. The digital broadcasters themselves are wreaking havoc (each has their own standards). Is the “loudness war” over? Oh yes ?
The most interesting indication is the "LU" = Loudness Range which gives an indication of the DYNAMIC of the piece, i.e. the difference between the weakest passage and the loudest passage. The higher the number, the better the dynamics. A very good dynamic range would be around 8 dB= 8 LU. In fact you are at 3.8 LU which corresponds to low dynamics generally linked to a "compressed" sound. For me this is the most important criterion. And often the numbers only confirm an auditory sensation. Nothing more.
We come back to your mix. I've already said the essentials. Turn down that unbearable guitar. Vocal highlights+chorus. Mix the drums in stereo. Don't forget all the high frequency cymbals, etc..., support the kick a little more (low end + sub) as well as the timpani... Set all potentiometers to zero. Start all over again. Mix the drums. Add the bass. Check kick and bass together. Mix all the guitars together separately then add the piano. Then listen to it all together. Mix the vocals separately. Add them to the instrumental mix. From there you can equalize both the instrumental part and the vocal section. At this stage you can start using the compressors. In this sense create at least two buses if not more, ideally one buss for the drums, one for the bass, one for the rest of the instruments and one for the vocals, each with the appropriate compressor. You cannot use ONE compressor on the master track. You simply have to use a limiter on the master to stay within technical standards. There, it should be good.................................................
Sorry I didn't have time to read all the previous posts. I answered SonicTramp's questions simply and directly.
Francis
p..s.: a little surprised at the time spent writing about toms and OHs. I don't see at all where any problem could lie since it seems basic and logical to me to check the position of the toms in an OH stereo track. Afterwards we have the eternal discussion of the placement of the drum kit, perspective of the drummer or that of the listener.
The real problem is knowing how to locate the entire drum kit in the sound space depending on the type of music.
The real debate is there.
I've found that OHs aren't always a perfect representation of the stereo spread. And no one seems to say "well pan the snare off to one side because that where it is in the over heads..." we just center it. Panning the toms as they would be on a drumkit certainly makes quick, logical sense. That said, making 'musical' choices works just as well. I've had engineers argue that the floor tom should be centered. I dunno.
I will say that when I first heard and messed around with this track I had the toms centered. It just felt natural to do so. It felt best for the groove at the time. As you said "real problem is knowing how to locate the entire drum kit in the sound space depending on the type of music" (though I wouldn't call it a problem). This is one of those instances where there can be a 'debate'.
. Spent a whole lot of time on the toms trying to tame it down. The tail ends was hard to work with. Was able to bring the drums forward, even with the constant pounding toms. Worked on the balance of the guitars more, especially the lead guitar. I don't know if it's a hit or a miss 
