FytaKyte-TooMuch

[SonicTramp]

Open season!
What I did last was trying to use the kick sub to anchor the bottom end. Didnt get it on the first try. Went back and gave it another try. Tried really hard to get the snare to cut thru but unable to. What you hear is the best I can come up with, mostly coming from the OH instead. The individual snare is just to dull for my taste no matter what I do. I tried paralleled, distortion, etc, but it sounded too harsh. So I abandoned working on it and stuck to the OH for now. I haven't found a way to tackle it yet. Any help here is awesome. Brought the ac guitars up in the solo. Worked on the vocal.

*uploaded the wrong version. Sorry about that.

[mikej]

Hi,

I think you are back on track with mix 4.

The shaker that comes in around the 1:18 mark might be a touch loud, but that was the only thing that bothered me balance wise. A touch of delay on that electric guitar 3 (I think it's guitar 3?) I thought might be nice addition for a bit of extra interest perhaps?

The snare question is a tough one. I have a couple of thoughts that perhaps might be worth considering. The first is to add samples. The second is to start the mix balance with the snare up front where you want it, and add everything else into the mix around it. With every part that you add, keep listening to make sure that snare is still cutting through whilst bringing in the next fader.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Thanks, mikej. I did just that to save the snare, but when I brought in the guitars it seemed to interfere with the snare and I found that I had to shave off the top end of the guitars, and others, which I thought I could shave some hi off, to share with the snare. The action I took did more harm than good. I can't sacrifice everything for the snare, right? I love it but not that much. I still think I can cut some off from the guitars it's just I haven't found a good place yet. But I'll find it.
I thought about a sample, but I don't have a good one, not anything I thought would fit the song anyway.
I'll work on it a bit more and see.
Ahh..the shakers. I, too, thought it was a bit loud but the purpose was to give the mix a bit of top end, mostly trying to hide the not so good snare.

I have a problem I haven't had a chance to ask but anyone can jump in and help too if they want.

Every time when I put the snare and kick  and bass loud enough to my liking you always made comment about it saying it's too loud, even w/o my asking. And bc I trust you, I hold them back every time since, on this one too. (Still sneaked in a couple times but you caught me every time. So I trust you even more). That gave me an idea about your system. Perhaps (1) my room has a cancellation somewhere in the low end, the reason I overcompensate. Or (2) could it be your room has an addition somewhere down there where you are at. Or (3) it could just be simply bc of our diff in preferences. I can only think of 3. I listened to your mix to check and to see if you under compensate, the bass translates in my system. That almost rules out the problem is at your end, relatively. So which one in your opinion. I just want to know which so that I can follow. (On this one, I thought I could use a bit more bass, tried it, liked it better but not upload yet). As you can see, it affects my mix bc the low end is the most important. I posted the mix I thought would translate to your system better. They said once one identifies the problem the work is 50% done. I would like to have that first half done first.

You see I am just trying to gauge my volume balance. When I "mix" it's just actually trying to see where they fit, the sweet spot uniquely to my listening environment (this is very important to me). Mixing is fun and I love mixing, but the goal for me now is to learn my room's response first so that I can build a mix that translates, the most important in mixing. Mixing can come after, imo. I get more by reading comments about my volume balance than how I control the instruments using processors. Once I get everything in their place it's easier to work, imo.

I trust science therefore I trust the Fletcher-Munson curve. I know that a couple dBs diff in the same of anything will affect our frequency response and therefore our decisions. Btw, isn't it the reason why we, meaning mostly me, don't have a consistent mix all the time, bc we haven't found that sweet spot uniquely to our environment? If that is agreed, then I'd ask, can we do something about it?

I know I ask a lot but I have no one else to. Most of my friends thought mixing is DJing. I never bother to explain. And bc of my inquisitiveness it bothers me to no end. Just like phase, I still don't know how to recognize it, and how to go around it. I wish there is a sample of those somewhere out there so I can learn. But I do know more than before about it, still a plus. Thanks, man.

[mikej]

Hi!

Wow, a lot of really excellent questions here!

Thanks, mikej. I did just that to save the snare, but when I brought in the guitars it seemed to interfere with the snare and I found that I had to shave off the top end of the guitars, and others, which I thought I could shave some hi off, to share with the snare. The action I took did more harm than good. I can't sacrifice everything for the snare, right? I love it but not that much. I still think I can cut some off from the guitars it's just I haven't found a good place yet. But I'll find it.

I can think of a couple of things that might help.  I find that you can probably shape the guitars a little more than you might think. 

I tend to do this on the guitar bus, and more towards the end of the mix.  What might work is if you put an eq on the guitar bus, and sweep around with a bit of boost until the guitar is really masking the snare, then just dip it by about half a db or so.  You can do this in a couple of spots - probably somewhere around 1-8k, and also around 200-600k too.

The other thing to try that might work is at the end of the mix - try and target the snare on the mix bus with a little 0.5 to 1db eq boost to bring it out of the mix a little.

I thought about a sample, but I don't have a good one, not anything I thought would fit the song anyway.
I'll work on it a bit more and see.

Feel free to drop me a pm if you are still struggling to find a good sample .

Ahh..the shakers. I, too, thought it was a bit loud but the purpose was to give the mix a bit of top end, mostly trying to hide the not so good snare.

The main thing for me was that I felt it was competing for attention with the vocal a little too much, when the vocal should be the main focus.  I think it's there to add a little more interest from the first verse, so should be more of an ear-candy type thing I feel.

I have a problem I haven't had a chance to ask but anyone can jump in and help too if they want.

Every time when I put the snare and kick  and bass loud enough to my liking you always made comment about it saying it's too loud, even w/o my asking. And bc I trust you, I hold them back every time since, on this one too. (Still sneaked in a couple times but you caught me every time. So I trust you even more). That gave me an idea about your system. Perhaps (1) my room has a cancellation somewhere in the low end, the reason I overcompensate. Or (2) could it be your room has an addition somewhere down there where you are at. Or (3) it could just be simply bc of our diff in preferences. I can only think of 3. I listened to your mix to check and to see if you under compensate, the bass translates in my system. That almost rules out the problem is at your end, relatively. So which one in your opinion. I just want to know which so that I can follow. (On this one, I thought I could use a bit more bass, tried it, liked it better but not upload yet). As you can see, it affects my mix bc the low end is the most important. I posted the mix I thought would translate to your system better. They said once one identifies the problem the work is 50% done. I would like to have that first half done first.

Yeah this is quite a big one. 

For me it's about the relative balance of the drums to everything else.  Part of it is taste and preference of course.  I think it's something you have to work at, and get a feel for. 

Spend time listening to as much music as you can that is in a similar style to what you are mixing, and focus on the drum balance - where they sit compared to other instruments and vocals. 

If you have all the drums going to a bus, try making the drums too quiet, then too loud, then see if there is a spot in between that feels about right.

You see I am just trying to gauge my volume balance. When I "mix" it's just actually trying to see where they fit, the sweet spot uniquely to my listening environment (this is very important to me). Mixing is fun and I love mixing, but the goal for me now is to learn my room's response first so that I can build a mix that translates, the most important in mixing. Mixing can come after, imo. I get more by reading comments about my volume balance than how I control the instruments using processors. Once I get everything in their place it's easier to work, imo.

I trust science therefore I trust the Fletcher-Munson curve. I know that a couple dBs diff in the same of anything will affect our frequency response and therefore our decisions. Btw, isn't it the reason why we, meaning mostly me, don't have a consistent mix all the time, bc we haven't found that sweet spot uniquely to our environment? If that is agreed, then I'd ask, can we do something about it?

Another huge question! I shall do my best to try and explain what I went through to try and figure it out....

Yeah.  I can only share my experience trying to figure out the exact same thing.  I won't lie, it was really tough figuring it out, and for a while it really got quite confusing as to which way was up, frequency wise.  I think I kind of got somewhere with it in the end.  Took me a few months though and it was quite tough and not always fun.

Now, really I should get a measurement mic, and Room Eq Wizard and all that... but anyway...

My room is a bit small, but I did invest in some bass traps (I got a GIK room kit).  You can always look into building your own too.  Certainly I think the bass traps at the first reflection points make quite a difference.  Might be worth thinking about if you are able.

To start off with, the first thing I did was to make sure I always listened at the same volume.  My audio interface allows me to set some presets, so I just set a preset to a comfortable listening level - ie more on the quieter side, not blasting out.  I find it doesn't matter so much what volume I listen at now, but when I seriously started trying to figure out the whole frequency balance thing seriously, I find it helped enormously.

I would use the same volume level if I was mixing, or just listening to music.  And I did listen to a fair bit of music too.  It also helps spending a bit of time listening to some tracks you know well before you mix, to kind of reset your ears to a known benchmark frequency wise.  Listening at the same volume helps get over the Fletcher-Munson Curve problem.

Now what I did was I decided to use my monitors, in my mix room, as the 'master reference system'.  All my mixing decisions are based on what I hear on my monitors.  I have a few different audio systems and headphones that I also listen to music on.

(As an aside, as part of this process I found a couple of pairs of headphones that really seemed to mess with my frequency perception, so they are now gathering dust).

Anyway. If I listen to a mix on a different system and hear too much bass, I would then go back to my monitors, reduce the bass and try and learn how this new 'correct' amount of bass sounds like on my monitors.  I'd also reference commercial tracks too so I know what they sound like on my monitors, and try and match that with my mixes.  You have to learn the whole frequency range, how it sounds on other systems, and how it has to sound on your monitors to translate.  Hope that makes sense?

I've got some IEMs that I found are great for double checking the low end, and a couple of good hi-fi systems in different rooms to check the overall mix. 

Hopefully between different listening systems, and also comments on the forum, you'll find you can pretty much figure it out over time.  You have to bear in mind that likely none of our set ups are ideal, but you'll certainly be able to get a reasonable picture of where things are at.

Of course, you can always reference your mix with the library mix, and also with commercial mixes on a spectrum analyser in your daw too.

I suspect a lot of people skip this step.  It can be quite soul destroying when I put my mix up to the latest hot tracks and realise that it sucks.  All it means is the mix needs more work.  Does my  mix need more bass, more top end, etc?  Put in the effort and that gap will hopefully get smaller.  It also means that you'll keep learning and moving forward, and you'll start to notice things in commercial mixes that you can figure out and apply in your mixes too.

The other important thing is to take lots of breaks.  When I was trying to figure out how to mix metal I could only listen to distorted guitars for about 10 minutes at a time before losing all perspective on frequency balance. 

Before posting a mix, try leaving it a day or two before checking the mix again.  You might find you pick up on things you missed, after your ears have had a bit of a rest.

I know I ask a lot but I have no one else to. Most of my friends thought mixing is DJing. I never bother to explain. And bc of my inquisitiveness it bothers me to no end. Just like phase, I still don't know how to recognize it, and how to go around it. I wish there is a sample of those somewhere out there so I can learn. But I do know more than before about it, still a plus. Thanks, man.

Hey no worries. I don't know anyone who is in to mixing or music production either, which is why I joined the forum! As I always keep saying I really am no mixing expert.  All I can do is share my own thoughts and experiences from my own struggle with trying to figure it out,  and share what seems to work for me in the hope that it might be of some help.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

I am not afraid to listen to the ref anymore. I get something out of it now. And not just the ref but also mixes around here. When I heard what I liked I went back to mine and tried if I could produce the same. I don't mind doing that. Usually I try to do the leg work by myself. I rather not ask if I can help it. But if I do, it's bc there's no one there to discuss with me and the matter is too advance for me to think by myself. I feel safer discussing with you, wrong or right. That's why I asked you for your experience and methods. And yeah, the things we do here is very unfamiliar to a lot of people. It's not like books or movies where they are prevalent and almost everybody knows.

Thanks for the offer on the snare sample. I know what I like but I don't know the name of it. I'll search for it and let you know and see if you have them. I have a few, but mostly stupid stuffs. I tried it but I didn't like it on this song. But I can live without it. The original snare still cool. I just have to learn to work with it. Right now my goal is to keep everything in balance by finding them sweet spots for all the instruments in a mix first. Right now the snare the kick and the bass are it. The rest should come easier by then.

I have another mix, same as last but a little more bass, nothing else was done to it, just raising the volume. This is where I like it most. I wonder if I approach the limit of your bass tolerance or it's still ok. I pushed it up .3dB. I guess the question is: does it hold up the mix, overwhelm it, or still can go more. Thanks for the time, man.

[Tambo Man]

Just my thoughts on some stuff to try for drums ( in response to the second to last mix you posted.) Maybe turn down the hi-hat mike, I think it’s out of phase with the snare. Gate or expand the toms. I feel like there’s some phasing problem happening with the snare. Use more of the room mikes, these sound good. Helps with the sustain of the drums. Maybe add some verbs to the snare, gated verb, chamber and plate with pre delays mixed in low. I timed delayed the rooms a little bit and did a little compression with a fast attack. Only put the close miked drums on a buss. Try an ssl style comp on the snare with the 30ms attack after eq. Use a little deessing on the OH and rooms, 2-3db’s.

I couldn’t say for sure but it sounds like you had hi-passed the over heads a bit. If so I’d relax that a bit and let the OHs and rooms provide some body to the snare and toms.

Another thing you could try is, have the drums hot in the mix and use a clipper after the master comp to shave off just the drum hits a little.

Those are my initial thoughts but remember I’m no pro lol.

[SonicTramp]

That's awesome, man. The hat is out of phase with the snare or vice versa. I just checked. I can hear the changes when I flipped the polarity. The snare is not as ugly as it used to be and the hats are softer and less harsh. No wonder why the snare sounded so dull to me and the hats were just rude in my mix, even in the last one. No matter what I tried the hats were either obnoxious or disappeared altogether. It just wouldn't sit where I wanted it to be. So obnoxious was the choice, grudgingly tho.

What from my mix gives it away to you? What do you look for when you suspect there's phase prob?

Yeah, man. I am learning using bare bone equipment 95% stock. So none of those awesome SSL stuffs. My iOs doesn't allow me to buy anything. In fact I lost some from 3rd party.

I really appreciate your comment, man. If it's ok, I'd like to ask you more about phase. I want to learn to catch it. Thanks.

[mikej]

Yeah some good tips there Tambo Man, thanks for sharing! I think I'll be double checking the phase of the hat mic in my mix too later!

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

One thing to remind mikej. I messed around with them a lot. So they maybe out of phase in mine but not yours.

[mikej]

Ah, gotcha, thanks. Well, I did gate the toms and I remember going through and checking the phase of most of the drum mics, but I'm not 100% sure I checked the hat mic now it's been mentioned.

Cheers!