RockMe-FacingTheTruth

[SonicTramp]

Roy, I watched the video you sent. From what I learn from the video, it seems the rear bus is actually the sides (everything except the drums). Am I right? If it's the case, then we can always use the sides from MSED, right? I pushed the sides quite hard on this one and the mix gets much louder without hitting the limiter much. Any thoughts?

[Roy]

Roy, I watched the video you sent. From what I learn from the video, it seems the rear bus is actually the sides (everything except the drums). Am I right? If it's the case, then we can always use the sides from MSED, right? I pushed the sides quite hard on this one and the mix gets much louder without hitting the limiter much. Any thoughts?

Well, to be fair, the Rear buss recommendation was just a variation off what I was thinking. I think straight parallel compression might be a better option to consider.

That said, Rear isn't just the sides. It's everything excluding the drums so anything panned to the center would be sent there as well. Even if everything was panned in the center they'd go to the rear. Keep in mind that "rear" is just an archaic term used for the section of the console Scheps was using at the time. In the end it's just parallel compression with just without the drums.

That said, I'd venture any peaking you're getting is probably from the drums so I guess in hindsight a lot of what I said probably doesn't apply and I was somewhat misunderstanding the issue. Again it was PRE-COFFEE!

Maybe consider a limiter on the drum bus, if you're using one. Something to just catch the occasional peaks like right before the chorus.

Hope I'm making sense. The coffee I did have has long since worn off.

[mikej]

I took your mix as a ref. I notice it's ridiculously loud, which I love (part of what I am going for in a mix). I tried a couple ways to get mine as loud but unable to. Not until I blasted the sides, a whopping 4.5dBs (using MSED voxengo) . It did make my mix a lot louder, but obscured a little bit of the vocal. Am I heading in the wrong direction?

The loudness comes mainly from the mix balance, then the limiter to bring the level up. I'm really not doing anything more than that for volume. Of course you can always add a little touch more sides if you feel the mix needs a bit more width though. I'll have to check - I imagine I just have a compressor, maybe some eq, and then a limiter on the master bus. There might possibly be a small amount of saturation on the mix bus too. Can't remember, as I don't always feel the need to use any.

I feel your mix_2 is heading in the right direction.

Watch the levels of the additional guitars - I think some of those guitar licks might be just a touch loud, which takes some power away from the rest of the band. When something comes in louder, it makes everything else smaller. You really have to try and think carefully about how loud you want certain things to appear relative to everything else. Sometimes having a riff coming over the top of everything can sound really good though. (I feel Chuck Ainlay is a bit of a master at this).

Perhaps the main rhythm guitars could come up a touch? I feel things might be getting just a little too squashed when the chorus comes in. Not by much though. See, the extra distortion it gives the lead vocal does really help the chorus to sound louder (good thing!), it might just be just a hair too much and be giving the impression that it's maybe the mix bus compressor or limiter is clamping down a bit too hard at that point though.

Have a listen to the balances of the library mix (kick/snare/bass/guitars/etc) and go from there. Listen to your mix, and then the library mix. In both mixes - try listening to how everything sits volume wise relative to, say the bass, and see if that gives you any clues regarding fine tuning the balance. (I have a vague recollection that this one was quite tricky to balance, as some tracks needed a lot of volume boost, and others needed to be turned down a fair bit. Sorry I can't quite remember!).

Oh - maybe the kick needs a little more 60Hz low end weight. Then check how that works with the bass - might need to hi-pass the bass just a hair more to get the kick/bass balance right - not by much though - listen for this on the library mix again and see (or should that be hear!) what you think?

I think that would be my advice. I feel that parallel compression, etc, is perhaps more for icing the cake if still needed, after trying the above. Personally I find the better job I can do on the initial balance and eq, the less I feel the need for parallel compression, etc to get things to punch through.

Anyway, just my thoughts, as ever, which I hope might help?

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

I took your mix as a ref. I notice it's ridiculously loud, which I love (part of what I am going for in a mix). I tried a couple ways to get mine as loud but unable to. Not until I blasted the sides, a whopping 4.5dBs (using MSED voxengo) . It did make my mix a lot louder, but obscured a little bit of the vocal. Am I heading in the wrong direction?

The loudness comes mainly from the mix balance, then the limiter to bring the level up.  I'm really not doing anything more than that for volume.  Of course you can always add a little touch more sides if you feel the mix needs a bit more width though.  I'll have to check - I imagine I just have a compressor, maybe some eq, and then a limiter on the master bus.  There might possibly be a small amount of saturation on the mix bus too.  Can't remember, as I don't always feel the need to use any.

I feel your mix_2 is heading in the right direction. 

Watch the levels of the additional guitars - I think some of those guitar licks might be just a touch loud, which takes some power away from the rest of the band.  When something comes in louder, it makes everything else smaller.  You really have to try and think carefully about how loud you want certain things to appear relative to everything else.  Sometimes having a riff coming over the top of everything can sound really good though.  (I feel Chuck Ainlay is a bit of a master at this). 

Perhaps the main rhythm guitars could come up a touch? I feel things might be getting just a little too squashed when the chorus comes in. Not by much though.  See, the extra distortion it gives the lead vocal does really help the chorus to sound louder (good thing!), it might just be just a hair too much and be giving the impression that it's maybe the mix bus compressor or limiter is clamping down a bit too hard at that point though.

Have a listen to the balances of the library mix (kick/snare/bass/guitars/etc) and go from there.  Listen to your mix, and then the library mix.  In both mixes - try listening to how everything sits volume wise relative to, say the bass, and see if that gives you any clues regarding fine tuning the balance.  (I have a vague recollection that this one was quite tricky to balance, as some tracks needed a lot of volume boost, and others needed to be turned down a fair bit.  Sorry I can't quite remember!).

Oh - maybe the kick needs a little more 60Hz low end weight. Then check how that works with the bass - might need to hi-pass the bass just a hair more to get the kick/bass balance right - not by much though - listen for this on the library mix again and see (or should that be hear!) what you think?

I think that would be my advice.  I feel that parallel compression, etc, is perhaps more for icing the cake if still needed, after trying the above.  Personally I find the better job I can do on the initial balance and eq, the less I feel the need for parallel compression, etc to get things to punch through.

Anyway, just my thoughts, as ever, which I hope might help? 

Cheers!

Thanks for the comment, mikej. I always appreciate your help. I feel I am in good hands with both you and Roy . You guys seem to genuinely trying to help me on my endeavor. And "kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see"-MT. I am neither, so sure, I am super appreciative.

I notice your bottom end is quite beefy relative to mine. I tried to work on it (~50-60Hz boost on the bass and then on the kick to see if I could duplicate) but I couldn't hear what I did, so hard to hear such low freq in headphones. The last time I tried to bring up to where I can hear it, on another song, then it would be too loud (according to Roy and I trust his comment). But I will try again. My goal right now is to sit the bottom end (kick/bass) in my headphones to where it translates. About the guitars: I am still trying to get a feel where they should sit. I still have to learn my headphones and how it behaves with freq. Pushing the sides that much (4 1/2 dBs) tells me that my guitars should be a lot louder, and that I should try the dyn3 instead of the bf76 (I think they have a bit too much top end). The reason I like the bf76 is bc it's quite obnoxious and aggressive, perfect for rock genre, imo. I know I still have to work a lot of things out, but the good news is, according to you, I am heading in the right direction. That's always a comforting thought. It's scary flying blind, man, bc we know how it ends, right? I wish no one should be put thru any of that. Anywayz, thanks for the effort.

[mikej]

Re the 1176 - It might be worth considering if there is a difference between an aggressive compressor, and an aggressive sound?

Quoting from Wikipedia the attack time on the 1176 is from 20 μs to 800 μs (0.00002–0.0008 seconds). Release times are adjustable from 50 ms to 1100 ms (0.05–1.1 seconds). So might be ideal for getting an 'aggressive' sounding bass, guitar or vocal - as it is flattening out and pinning the level so that it can sit on top of a loud rock band without getting lost.

(fast release times can give you a bit of distortion of course, that might be desirable).

Regarding drums (and the mixbus) you might want to let the initial transient through, before clamping down on the signal to get a more punchy sound. See, the 1176 might be too fast, and likely won't be allowing the initial transient through (it will be reacting and reducing the gain right away) - so for drums you might get a more aggressive sound using a compressor that has, say a 10 to 30ms attack time for example.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Re the 1176 - It might be worth considering if there is a difference between an aggressive compressor, and an aggressive sound?

I'd rather have an aggressive sounds. But aggressive compressor is much easier for the ears to detect.

Quoting from Wikipedia the attack time on the 1176 is from 20 μs to 800 μs (0.00002–0.0008 seconds).  Release times are adjustable from 50 ms to 1100 ms (0.05–1.1 seconds).  So might be ideal for getting an 'aggressive' sounding bass, guitar or vocal - as it is flattening out and pinning the level so that it can sit on top of a loud rock band without getting lost. 

I agree with this and has been using it with that purpose. I notice the guitars sounds become thicker with it better than the bass.

(fast release times can give you a bit of distortion of course, that might be desirable).

Regarding drums (and the mixbus) you might want to let the initial transient through, before clamping down on the signal to get a more punchy sound.  See, the 1176 might be too fast, and likely won't be allowing the initial transient through (it will be reacting and reducing the gain right away) - so for drums you might get a more aggressive sound using a compressor that has, say a 10 to 30ms attack time for example. 

I will try and be more careful with it. I want to get it right . I will strip it back to barebone and have another go at it with your advice. Thanks, man.



Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Came back and had another go on the song. I panned the guitars, except the main guitar, as if they were mono instead. I am always confused that when faced with recorded material in stereo, should we just leave them be or manipulate them as needed. To me, if treated like mono, the guitars are much wider, and somewhat, easier to EQ. Any thoughts? I am still trying to gauge levels of instruments therefore any comment on that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Roy]

Pre coffee:
I think the latest version works. The bass might be a bit loud or maybe just needs to be a hair thinner. It might be weighing the mix down.
I think it would benefit from some effects. I get that you're working on one thing at a time but it all works together.

Overall I think it works on a sonic level. I can hear everything and nothing bothers me. I will say it feels 'flat'. I think you could explore the 'music' end of it all. If that makes sense. Not a critique.

As for stereo or mono guitar tracks. I tend to just wing it. My gut says if they recorded it in stereo then they intended it to be in stereo but I've come to find that in the end a lot of the time they didn't know what they wanted to do at the tracking stage. Most of the time it's pretty much mono anyway. Or they're amp simulations that they just bounce to stereo anyway. Check the ref mix and trust your ears. If panning a stereo track makes for a better mix then do it. Or consider just taking one side of the stereo track if there are phasing issues. Or keep them all straight up. Nothing wrong with mono. The last mix of this one I did I'm pretty sure I panned the main 'stereo' guitars but put the overheads in mono.

Also, I found this "making of" for this song and think it's charming:
https://youtu.be/tO5UF70sF34?si=OWBFZQ9efsnk0CPp
I had a totally different image of the singer before...

[SonicTramp]

@Roy. Thanks for the listen. I am happy to hear I am getting a bit warmer in the mix. It seems the loud bass is the constant problem for me now. I'll check it again soon. The only "fx" I use for the bass is distortion/saturation. I heard you can put a chorus on the bass, but it never worked for me, so I abandoned the idea. But that was a long time ago. You're right, right now I just want to have a serviceable mix so that I can continue to improve it, meaning levels, freq balances.

The same for me as far as stereo/mono tracks are concerned, I am just winging it . If it doesn't work I could always pan them back to the original state. For me, tho recorded in stereo, I never thought they are wide enough. I find that I can get things wider when I work in mono. I sometimes use the msed to cut down on the mid, but I never liked the way they sound. Either that or I didn't know what I was doing, which is more likely to be the case. I am still in the learning stage . Eventually, I hope I will be able to get to the "musical" end of the mix. Right now I am still tripping on the eq/comp/gate. I need to get over that hump first. The good news is it's getting better as I go along thanks to you, Shul, and mikej. I feel more confident (sometimes falsely) and that helps me be more daring and less second guessing my decisions when I work. Thanks, man.

[Roy]

You can put chorus on anything if you're brave enough. Though I wouldn't say this song is a candidate for chorus on bass.

Just remember just because an audio track is in stereo doesn't mean it is stereo. I've got the Beatles first album in my iTunes and it's a stereo file but that album isn't stereo.

I'd say, from a learning stand point, you should just do a fun mix for yourself. You don't have to post it ( if you do though I guarantee it won't be as bad as my 'fun' mix of this one)... But just do a mix, relatively quickly, where you're not thinking too much about what you're doing and caring too much about the final outcome. Just mix while accepting that you've learned some stuff and trust what you're doing. Play with some effects or whatever. Just work through the tension of mixing, if that makes sense. Like, I suck, but I do so with a fair amount of confidence.

I think I've lost the plot of what I was trying to say. But the intent was well meant, I can assure you.