Discussion Zone

The musicianship on display here is pretty remarkable. These are talented dudes.

I'm not into metal and never have been, despite several attempts to learn to enjoy it, because all music is valid in my opinion... whether I happen to like it or otherwise. But that shouldn't make it any harder to mix, should it...?

Well... maybe. This is a mess of a mix/master and I'd love some feedback to put me on the right course.

The bass guitar sounds to me like the bassist was allowing and open string to ring (not sure if intentionally), and the kick drum is hellishly fast, so getting those two working was a challenge and I'm pretty sure I failed. Tried transient modelling, no dice. Tried fading out the ringing muddy notes and the cure was worse than the ailment. Ultimately I wound up using a sidechain configuration, and also used dynamic EQ on the bass track directly to control the swelling LF stuff as much as I could.

There's also a harshness in the lead vocal, pretty common when a singer really needs power and has to scream, since the vocal chords change shape. I see it all the time... but in this case my efforts to tone it down and make it less needling weren't enough. Any ideas there?

Lol. I'm evidently going to need to practice mixing metal.

Hey Pauli

As ever, you've put together a well balanced mix...and for a first stab at metal...not bad...a damned sight better than my first mix.

However, it sounds like you've mixed this like a rock song, not metal. Which is what i did too on my first go so I'm not surprised.

What I mean is

1. Guitars are a bit harsh....maybe because bass needs to come up a bit..or maybe cos you've added bite......

2. Kick is insane....but you need to have more confidence and bring it up..and match bass accordingly....

3. Stereo image is narrow...and you're losing power and impact because of it...rhythm guitars need to be HARD L&R (if they're not already but I'm guessing not cos of the narrowness of stereo image and because i think i can hear BGVs outside gtrs).

4. bringing up the kick and bass will most likely kill your DR from your current level of 12 down nearer 10 or even lower (heavens forbid) ...If you're like me ...you'll hate that....but you cant fight it.....cos it wont sound like metal otherwise....but you know you're on the right track when you do

Blitzzz, the artist has done some excellent critiques of mixes to date.. Whether he's still doing them I'm not sure...poor guy must be exhausted. Anyway he's put some good pointers up in several threads...if you can't find them have a look at my post as they are all there.

Bottom line though, most tracks are well recorded and as the artist wants them...so most EQ is only HP and LP accordingly to get a good blend across the spectrum....also using some of the recommended reference tracks really helps...as that is how the tracks have been recorded to sound like...so you don't have to re-invent the wheel so to speak...only shine a light on it.

Good work...you're nearly there....probably need to focus in on some accurate reference tracks and you'll be sweet.

Hey HB, thanks for thoughtful remarks. I'll respond to each in kind and maybe we can narrow things down a little bit. And maybe help some other metal neophytes along the way?

1. Yeah, they're harsh. I referenced quite a few tracks and couldn't really find a benchmark because it all sounds pretty harsh to me, but in different ways I suppose. I was on the fence about cutting the high mids because it sounded better to me... but I talked myself out of it?

2. My gut tells me I should really just bring everything else down. I like a fuller bass for sure, but lord... at speeds like this my monitoring can barely keep up.

3. I laughed when I read this. EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING aches when I pan anything hard left/right, even though I know it's the standard for this genre. My stereo imaging at my desk is awful so I'll give this a try and cross reference as much as I can. They're panned 70% in opposition which is already a lot further than I'd usually take a guitar... is the narrow imaging possibly because I have the sides channel highpassed?

4. I don't usually worry too much about DR values, but I use the TT meter (daw version) while mastering... I have an LA2A emulation going on the master, so I could ease off of that if the dynamics get too screwy. No matter what I do it'll sound better than Death Magnetic

Somewhere I read that metalheads are actually screaming about the super crushed masters louder than anyone else right now, because without quiet, there can be no loud. I think we can get it sounding like metal without crushing it all to hell.

Most of the tracks are already compressed and the backing vocal tracks are obviously processed already as well... so I'll give this one another look. Thanks again!

Here's the first round of revisions.

Now we're getting there...Guitars sound much better..much more in-sync with bass...which is working better with drums.....so that whole low end has much more punch now....plus improved stereo imaging is delivering more drive.

Now you are on your own 'cos I've exhausted my limited knowledge of this genre...and what i do know I've only learnt myself in the last week

(13-08-2014, 02:16 AM)pauli Wrote: [ -> ]I think we can get it sounding like metal without crushing it all to hell.

For sure...I'm not suggesting the use of compression...or brick-wall limiting....just fader levels. In my experience DR is usually a function of the difference in levels between the snare and bass/kick (obviously a simplified anecdotal model -----nobody get upset)....so as we bring the bass/kick up....the gap is narrowed and DR is reduced..

I think this is more noticeable in genres where bass/kick is very solid like metal whereas with funk for example the bass/kick will release much more obviously after the beat.

Good mix mate, thumbs up! Beside the refs songs I have mentioned in this thread (http://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/showt...p?tid=5761) you can also listen to the stems of "My curse" on youtube.

Bass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhejPhdnwj8
Drums: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV0zxWoIhcY
Vocals and Back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QueVMS6dVms
and last but not least - guitars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGNW0hNuzzk

btw in the original mix the guitars are panned hard 100% left/right, solos 20/20, melody guitars 50/50.

ps: don't destroy your mix with an ozone preset =) no need to crush this song

Hey, thanks for listening and your suggestions, as well as providing your song.

Quote:ps: don't destroy your mix with an ozone preset =) no need to crush this song

lol, did I crush it? Whoops I don't have ozone... but there's about 2 to 3 dB of gain reduction at most from a combination of an LA2A, a multiband and a limiter... was that going too far?

(17-08-2014, 01:34 AM)pauli Wrote: [ -> ]lol, did I crush it? ... but there's about 2 to 3 dB of gain reduction at most from a combination of an LA2A, a multiband and a limiter... was that going too far?

i don't know about too far....more perhaps in the wrong direction? the LA2A isn't the tool for the stereo buss because of it's inherent characteristics; 10ms attack and 4:1 compression ratio. additionally, following this with a multiband? not sure of your logic in stacking compressors here, unless you're thinking mixing instead of mastering? they are totally different mind-sets, of course. the LA2A also has a colouration issue and it's transparency we are looking for in a mastering processor.

personally, i'd view a multiband (irrespective of whether it's being employed for dynamicEQ or compression purposes) as something to employ because the mix wasn't available? it's great for use when a client sends a mix that's a bit of a hornets nest, but i'd be concerned of it's use in your own material simply because issues can/should be addressed in the mix itself (said for the benefit of the wider audience). i will say, however, that situations can prevail where a multiband can fine-tune, so each situation will be based on it's own merits....generally though, if you find your going for it every time during mastering, then you need to ask yourself why to help validate your decision-making process.

also, the insert chain shouldn't be a standard go-to arrangement, but ought to depend on the needs of the material, and given the wide sonic and transient nature of each and every mix, your approach should be flexible. the bottom line, "What's the problem you are needing to fix?". select the right tool and fix it. your approach with the LA2A AND a multiband is causing problems, not fixing anything. i will say, that a multiband requires significant understanding and the fact that you've chosen an LA2A in the signal chain suggests you don't fully understand the consequences of your decisions.

with the limiter, a soft-knee approach is the way to go for greater transparency.

regarding your mix, i liked the guitars here. i'm not going to get embroiled in discussions about how relative they are to Killswitch or the so-say mastered references; in particular the soundcloud example which i found fatiguing owing to inappropriate attention to the needs in the HMF and HF departments which doesn't make it reference material by definition. however, i could see the battle you were having between delivering the power and presence of the eguitars on the one hand, with their willingness to mask other material. for example, the backing vocals struggled all the way through. you will also note the exceptionally reverberant backing track that appears in the final throws is damaged goods but offered a perfect example of aliasing?! personally, i think there's some merit in considering a gate to reduce the excessive decay spills in the sources generally. engineers ALWAYS prefer to have dry tracking so they can choose the best emu for the task for blend and make adjustments to suit needs and preferences (EQ especially), and it was unfortunate we got the wet here so we can't EQ the reverb without messing with the vocal..and in messing the vocal we affect the reverb - no win here. wet is important for a band to communicate their intentions....but that's where it should end, in my opinion, otherwise we are immediately constrained by the relative mixing "competence" of the musician and their chosen emu as well as it's selected configuration.

much talk around about smashing metal in the final process, and Blitzzz goes to great lengths about telling everyone that's not what he's looking for. however, in one post that has clearly been smashed (but with a good quality processor, i must say), he's highly complementary. seems he's been a victim of the loudness war without realising it. So, the moral here might be...smash it to hell, but keep the artifacts out of the way if you want to impress! heh. he thinks perhaps that you compressed your mix excessively because of the issues you've created in your signal chain, discussed above.

a gallant effort none the less, for a genre that's outside of your comfort zone; doing such takes courage.

TTFN
Dave

Oh I didn't mean his mix was overcompressed. It's a good mix.

It's all good conversation, though. We need more of this in the discussion zone, I think... discussion of technique.

I'm not sure where I read this, but somewhere during my research I encountered an article(?) about the use of LA2A on the stereo buss... the emulation I'm using is a bit more finessed with attack and release times, but the ratio is still fixed at 4:1 (I've since discovered), which for most people is a bit brutal for mastering, although in my opinion most modern rock styles don't make much sense without a good deal of mix buss compression. However, this particular model does seem to color the tone a bit, and I think I picked a less than ideal master buss EQ, too. Still got a lot to learn about processing on the stereo buss and the potential consequences of the plugin models I'm using.

Blitzzz, thank you for your praise and encouragement. Despite not knowing much about metal or caring for the genre much, this was challenging and exciting material for me... I found myself scratching my head quite often, but as Asimov once said:

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

And I found myself saying "Huh... that's funny" quite often. Learned a lot, mate.