Discussion Zone

Hi Henkeli,

Great mix and nice balance!

I think the 'loudness race' you talk about, you mean dynamic dynamics / mastering? Or do you mean the hard 'boom boom' some mixers like?

Normally dynamic mastering will get a result much louder then just keep the max to the 0dB (I guess you know about dynamic mastering?)

I agree, mastering can do good but can do harm too.

If you give a listening to my mix, the grand piano in this mastered version is a tiny too little, however the stereo image will get much better.

I think I guess I get what you mean by loudness race, but I'm finding this interesting and hope to hear I guessed right :-))

Keep up the good mixing.

Cheers,
Luc

Hi
Thanks for your kind reply.
What I mean about loudness race is the RMS factor (overall loudness) that is reflected in the way analog meters works compared to the digital domain so that overall loudness and the peak levels through the song is kept near the analog metering where typically 0db on the analog meter is around -18 on the digital meter and the headroom that one will achieve will now have plenty of room for dynamics (peak levels) to reach around -3 to -1.

Mastering is a completely different chapter, Im not there because it does involve a whole lot of other things besides levels/loudness/peaks so the term is misused in my world when people speak about mastering. (look up Bob Katz he is the guru master of the "mastering" concept). This is just a "mix"

I've learned such a great deal about how electronic equipment (amplifiers, Hi-Fi home stero etc) works and the thing is if you take most of the music today you have this problem if you're listening an song that has a loudness RMS factor and true peak that is constantly hitting around -0.2 or -0.1 it will kill the listening experience and there will be no breathing in the music aka dynamics, this has nothing to do with mastering it is all about levels when mixing.

The thing is that when you really turn up the voulme on your stereo this will sound so much better if the overall loudness is kept in the range of what analog gear is calibrated in voltage to what the digital world is, so if the music you listening to makes you turn down the volume on your stero (hi-fi) to make it listenable then it is to loud (hot) for the analog amplifier to handle and it will distort early and make you turn down the volume this is what I'm refeering to.

You can check out Bob Katz about the K-metering and learn about the loudness standards that are becoming to be the new way to handle what standards there should be when working with audio depending on which medium it will end up to for example Itunes/spotify/CD or TV and so on.

Yes it was many words but I think that when you play my version compared to many others you will find that it will really shine when you turn up the volume instead of sounding harse or other strange phenomena that you did not heard while mixing.

So to the song, I really did not understand what you meant about the piano, in my or your version?

My thinking was that the drums, bass and her vocals should be what formed the overall song and the piano and guitar is just filling in to cover the holes so to speak, but that's my thinking if I where listening on this song from lets say vinyl record where the dynamics (peaks) and frequency range (around 80hz-12Khz) would not cover the same as in the digital domain, you see I'm learning too...

So many many thanks for your reply it really made my day even better, besides the coffee, it's morning here

Have a beautiful day.

Hi
I Love the punch of your mix , as a personal preference the attack on the snare maybe jumping out a touch, Regarding loudness I think your mix could be another 8-9 db louder in volume without any level problems or limiting just to increase the signal to noise ratio as having to increase the volume on some preamps will only add more unwanted hiss and noise to your great mix.
Well Done

Hi thedon and many many thanks for your listening and kind review.

Of course I could raise the levels but then as I mentioned in my respons to Luc, this was done in terms of keeping it in the analog realm, and this is where my console reach it's 0db, of course I can push it on the console to but I did not want any saturation from the console and when playing it through my old Yamaha Natural sound amplifier it sounds really great, like how peoples home older hifi's often are.

If I would do this for lets say CD or DVD it would probably hold for a couple of db's more but I don't think 8-9 is reasonable, I've used to push everything in to the digital 0 for many years with limiters but then I learned about gain staging and how things are done in the analog world and why levels are so important so this time I thought lets try mixing this to that standard or around that at least because it sounds just much better, and here singing and the song is in my world very 70-80 disco...

Anyhow this is really down to subjective opinions and maybe you are right about that but then again it was for the fun of working on something you never heard and how you would approach it with your knowledge and equipment etc.

thanks again for your reply and maybe I consider what you said to the next project

yes the snare could be a db lower I realize.
Have a wonderful day.
/H