26-10-2014, 12:24 PM
hi Olli,
when you say "level", do you mean "loudness matched", in accordance with R128? out of interest, what processor did you use to adjust the tracks, may i ask?
with the first one, the vocal is clearly taking a major hit within the compression/limiting regime. i suspect there was a lot of dynamics from the vocal when it was brought over from the mix for mastering. the vocal tracking was quite difficult to control dynamically, and given most instrumentation in the mix is fighting within the vocal's key frequency range, it's pretty tempting to push the vocal up in the mix just to get it heard. this "push" in the vocal's level will be the first to hit the limiter in the master buss and result in it's distortion from over compression. this is what i conclude is happening here.
so, under processing, the vocal is being squashed very hard while the other instrumentation is being brought up in the mix by way of dynamic reduction, and this is why people are engaging in the file more readily - ear candy...the loudness perceived better...
i know Alan has a liking for compression and generally produces far hotter mixes than my listening tastes and pleasure can endure. that's not a criticism at least not in a direct sense, because in the current environment that's the way the Industry has driven itself. if you want to be "mix competitive" using old Loudness War jargon, the pressure to meet, or even exceed those expectations was pretty huge. some modern genres thrive on this (gain pumping, etc etc), others don't.
my personal concerns, especially in a world that's beginning to get more sensitive to the loudness issue (the fairly recent EBU R128 regulation being a case in point), is that hot mixes, certain genres accepted of course, are on the way out. what happens if we don't evolve and adapt? work that's highly compromised (by compromised, i'm talking in terms of LUFS expectations in accordance with R128), a mix like this when played on the radio, would sound acoustically poor because the radio station would need to "turn it down" to comply with broadcast standards. the nett result would be a less than impressive mix, while the more dynamic ones would sound significantly better.
my first post mentioned my headphones nearly falling off my head? it's one reason why the R128 standard came about - to keep output levels consistent, so we consumers don't have to keep reaching for the volume knob out of panic!
if i gave a -14 LUFS file to a radio station, they'd compress it to -12LUFS so their broadcast levels would be consistant. however, if they took Alan's master, at -7.? LUFS integrated, this audio would take a major 5 LUFS loudness hit. it wouldn't sound so exciting compared to a more dynamic track. quite the opposite, actually. furthermore, i'd contest that a hot mix that sometimes seeing loudness values in the range of -5.0 LUFS short term and 0dB limited (especially when it's then encoded to a lossy format), would definitely be causing distortion over most consumer devices.
i gave Alan a sportsman's challenge in an earlier posting. i bet him that he couldn't produce a -14LUFS master. he duly reciprocated with an equal challenge. i'm close to finishing this mix and i'm currently exceeding -15LUFS integrated. it can be done...but i'll be quite candid in saying that it is difficult, especially as i personally lean towards a -10 to -12 LUFS mix naturally (i.e. i don't aim for a loudness when working, but they tend to come out like this).
Please keep the The tread up Alan, i've put in some time here and i think the wider community might benefit from these kinds of discussion?
keep it coming guys..
cheers
Dave
(26-10-2014, 07:20 AM)Olli H Wrote: I listened to your first and last mix on same level, difference was not so big to me......
when you say "level", do you mean "loudness matched", in accordance with R128? out of interest, what processor did you use to adjust the tracks, may i ask?
Quote:.....but still I think the first one was better, more groovy and interesting.
with the first one, the vocal is clearly taking a major hit within the compression/limiting regime. i suspect there was a lot of dynamics from the vocal when it was brought over from the mix for mastering. the vocal tracking was quite difficult to control dynamically, and given most instrumentation in the mix is fighting within the vocal's key frequency range, it's pretty tempting to push the vocal up in the mix just to get it heard. this "push" in the vocal's level will be the first to hit the limiter in the master buss and result in it's distortion from over compression. this is what i conclude is happening here.
so, under processing, the vocal is being squashed very hard while the other instrumentation is being brought up in the mix by way of dynamic reduction, and this is why people are engaging in the file more readily - ear candy...the loudness perceived better...
i know Alan has a liking for compression and generally produces far hotter mixes than my listening tastes and pleasure can endure. that's not a criticism at least not in a direct sense, because in the current environment that's the way the Industry has driven itself. if you want to be "mix competitive" using old Loudness War jargon, the pressure to meet, or even exceed those expectations was pretty huge. some modern genres thrive on this (gain pumping, etc etc), others don't.
my personal concerns, especially in a world that's beginning to get more sensitive to the loudness issue (the fairly recent EBU R128 regulation being a case in point), is that hot mixes, certain genres accepted of course, are on the way out. what happens if we don't evolve and adapt? work that's highly compromised (by compromised, i'm talking in terms of LUFS expectations in accordance with R128), a mix like this when played on the radio, would sound acoustically poor because the radio station would need to "turn it down" to comply with broadcast standards. the nett result would be a less than impressive mix, while the more dynamic ones would sound significantly better.
my first post mentioned my headphones nearly falling off my head? it's one reason why the R128 standard came about - to keep output levels consistent, so we consumers don't have to keep reaching for the volume knob out of panic!
if i gave a -14 LUFS file to a radio station, they'd compress it to -12LUFS so their broadcast levels would be consistant. however, if they took Alan's master, at -7.? LUFS integrated, this audio would take a major 5 LUFS loudness hit. it wouldn't sound so exciting compared to a more dynamic track. quite the opposite, actually. furthermore, i'd contest that a hot mix that sometimes seeing loudness values in the range of -5.0 LUFS short term and 0dB limited (especially when it's then encoded to a lossy format), would definitely be causing distortion over most consumer devices.
i gave Alan a sportsman's challenge in an earlier posting. i bet him that he couldn't produce a -14LUFS master. he duly reciprocated with an equal challenge. i'm close to finishing this mix and i'm currently exceeding -15LUFS integrated. it can be done...but i'll be quite candid in saying that it is difficult, especially as i personally lean towards a -10 to -12 LUFS mix naturally (i.e. i don't aim for a loudness when working, but they tend to come out like this).
Please keep the The tread up Alan, i've put in some time here and i think the wider community might benefit from these kinds of discussion?
keep it coming guys..
cheers
Dave
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!