Will Knox - 'Cog In The Machine'

[thedon]

I love this song the vocals sound great good job !

[The_Metallurgist]

okey dokey! special version for you with less reverb on the violin. So everybody will be happy

hey Juan, que pasa?

it's coming along nicely.

Will Knox plays the acoustic guitar here, but you've detached him from his instrument? the gtr is mixed dry which forms the impression that it's really close to me - uncomfortably close i might add. and the vocal is mixed with ambiance, which has put him back a bit in the mix. that's not a problem by definition, so long as the guitar is following him?

i'd also bring the gtr center, rather than off to the left...which would then bring it in line with Will's vocal. it will then be necessary to make the ambiance of the guitar fit the vocal (or the vocal fit the guitar), otherwise the perspective and expectation that's Will is playing here, might get lost on the listener? you need to be really careful in getting Will's vocal level matched with the guitar here, so we are convinced and without any doubt, that it's him playing the instrument? i'd monitor at a low volume, really low, and check the balance between them. low-level monitoring is pretty good for checking balance in this respect, but i say this while looking over my shoulder in the direction of the Equal Loudness Contour chart

if you choose this plan, consider the EQ on the vocal and the acoustic carefully. spectral distribution is also used by our brains to confirm location and depth. soloing the vocal and the guitar, while temporarily muting the others in the gang, should help you focus on this aspect. then EQ the others to suit the needs of perspective [and expectation].

BE CAREFUL....messing with acoustic guitars for too long, because of their high frequencies, can throw our senses off balance pretty darn quickly (less than a minute...sometimes a few seconds can do it!). i recommend you have something to reference against so you can maintain your perspective.

if i was mixing this, i wouldn't want to draw my listeners away from Will's performance, because it's all about his delivery....and the rest of the instrumentation is there to support it. if you mix with this in mind, you'll be dominating.

i often learn more by spending a lot of time on one mix, than doing many different mixes. coming back again to an old mix, after a couple of weeks or months, can often give a new, fresh angle on things. i also think it's great that you are doing revisions here, and trying out different ideas. cool.

well done
'asta
Dave

PS: nearly forgot....make sure the ambiance of the drums is tailored to fit the other instruments

[juanjose1967]

Thank you, Don! There are songs that you like so much that you are eager to do whatever in order to make it sound perfect, and this is one of them!!

Hola, Dave!! you always make me think so much about the instruments position and to pay more attention of what the song is supposed to sound that I truly appreciate it because you're making me go beyond and advance in this long way until mixes will start sound good from the beginning

I've played the singer and the guitar alone, closed my eyes and tried to picture him playing the guitar right there on stage. If my imagination has served me well, I think I've done it!

I've also taken notice of the other instruments serving the vox and guitar and not just as mere instruments over there.

I've added a slight hall reverb to the drums, similar to the vox. In this last step I don't know if I've done it right because I tend to add too much reverb to things, so I've tried not to be too noticeable.

Thank you once more for your detailed explanations and your help!!

Hasta pronto!!

[The_Metallurgist]

I've played the singer and the guitar alone, closed my eyes and tried to picture him playing the guitar right there on stage.

cool. the guitar and vocal are now center...but how close should they be to me....and how close are the other musicians to me and each other? applying a reverb to the vocal and not treating his guitar the same way immediately throws the perspectives out the window, so be careful.

let me give you a powerful clue here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

and why a stage?

I've added a slight hall reverb to the drums, similar to the vox. In this last step I don't know if I've done it right because I tend to add too much reverb to things, so I've tried not to be too noticeable.

hall reverb? well, this would support a stage presence, but is this your vision for the mix? personally, i'd have made it small and cozy with the appropriate applications of ambiance to place the musicians individually in the depth perspective.

this is your problem...your perspective is not communicating the right signals for me to believe in the space you are applying here. sure, hall reverb, i get that signal...or do i? if everything was in the hall then you'd be on the way. however, even if sticking with your vision, the signals you're giving my ears isn't telling me where the musicians are relative to each other....and relative to the space you've put them in...i.e. a hall. think "DEPTH" here. what are the tools available to you for communicating this aspect of your mix?

you are now entering one of THE MOST CHALLENGING aspects of mixing, so it won't be fixed in 5 minutes, do go easy on yourself. here's a clue to help guide you (or maybe confuse....such is the subject material):

think about using more than one reverb to help present your signals.

the problem you are up against, is that humans instinctively understand space....and their eyes merely confirm what their ears are hearing. take the eyes out of the equation - walk around blind-folded for a day because this will REALLY sharpen your listening skills, and you will soon understand what i mean. this will FORCE you to LISTEN AND HEAR REVERB AND AMBIANCE, instead of taking it for granted, as most of us tend to do. try it, but make sure someone is helping you so you don't bump into things and have an accident. if you do this, you will learn more in this day for your mixing skills than the forum can provide in a year!

until you can replicate synthetically your envisioned space for this mix, or ANY mix, you won't deliver it effectively. it will sound odd at the subconscious level to most people (if they are human!), and because of this, you will fail to deliver the fullest possible emotion. not many DIY mixing engineers can do this, which is why their/our mixes still suck - some more than others....and that's more by luck than intention.

this principle goes to the CORE of your mixing strategy and how you approach future mixes. it takes a lot of research - more than a day with a blindfold on.....so please don't expect to nail it just like that.

i will also add, that while things like levels of guitars, kicks, bass, EQ and all that stuff might seem important, they aren't! because if the space isn't signaled properly, even if everything else is right in the mix...IT WILL FAIL TO CONNECT. it's a priority, that's what i'm saying, above all else....but of course, you can still keep working at the other stuff too, but that DEPTH perspective is CRITICAL. darn, it's all critical lol.

NB: a Hall reverb signals the HEIGHT perspective...it's NOT enough because height is only one part of the equation/dimension game. you also need to make this hall reverb work....unfortunately it's not at the moment because you aren't applying it correctly within the context of your vision.

when you start to research this subject in more detail, the above will begin to make sense.

[capitals for emphasis, not shouting]

'asta!
Dave

PS: i'm going to drop this in as an afterthought....but it's essential that you are conscious of it....NOT MANY MUSICIANS UNDERSTAND ACOUSTICS...SO WHEN THEY RECORD, THEIR MIC IS CAPTURING THE AMBIANCE OF THEIR ROOM (only 1 out of 500,000 will know how to professionally treat their room so this effect is minimised, and of these, only 1 out of 10,000,000 can afford to treat it. now this ambiance becomes a problem at mixing. you can't remove it. the brain hears this....and understands the space. now, if you apply a different ambiance on top of this...WHAT DO YOU GET?

[takka360]

I've played the singer and the guitar alone, closed my eyes and tried to picture him playing the guitar right there on stage.

cool. the guitar and vocal are now center...but how close should they be to me....and how close are the other musicians to me and each other? applying a reverb to the vocal and not treating his guitar the same way immediately throws the perspectives out the window, so be careful.

let me give you a powerful clue here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

and why a stage?

I've added a slight hall reverb to the drums, similar to the vox. In this last step I don't know if I've done it right because I tend to add too much reverb to things, so I've tried not to be too noticeable.

hall reverb? well, this would support a stage presence, but is this your vision for the mix? personally, i'd have made it small and cozy with the appropriate applications of ambiance to place the musicians individually in the depth perspective.

this is your problem...your perspective is not communicating the right signals for me to believe in the space you are applying here. sure, hall reverb, i get that signal...or do i? if everything was in the hall then you'd be on the way. however, even if sticking with your vision, the signals you're giving my ears isn't telling me where the musicians are relative to each other....and relative to the space you've put them in...i.e. a hall. think "DEPTH" here. what are the tools available to you for communicating this aspect of your mix?

you are now entering one of THE MOST CHALLENGING aspects of mixing, so it won't be fixed in 5 minutes, do go easy on yourself. here's a clue to help guide you (or maybe confuse....such is the subject material):

think about using more than one reverb to help present your signals.

the problem you are up against, is that humans instinctively understand space....and their eyes merely confirm what their ears are hearing. take the eyes out of the equation - walk around blind-folded for a day because this will REALLY sharpen your listening skills, and you will soon understand what i mean. this will FORCE you to LISTEN AND HEAR REVERB AND AMBIANCE, instead of taking it for granted, as most of us tend to do. try it, but make sure someone is helping you so you don't bump into things and have an accident. if you do this, you will learn more in this day for your mixing skills than the forum can provide in a year!

until you can replicate synthetically your envisioned space for this mix, or ANY mix, you won't deliver it effectively. it will sound odd at the subconscious level to most people (if they are human!), and because of this, you will fail to deliver the fullest possible emotion. not many DIY mixing engineers can do this, which is why their/our mixes still suck - some more than others....and that's more by luck than intention.

this principle goes to the CORE of your mixing strategy and how you approach future mixes. it takes a lot of research - more than a day with a blindfold on.....so please don't expect to nail it just like that.

i will also add, that while things like levels of guitars, kicks, bass, EQ and all that stuff might seem important, they aren't! because if the space isn't signaled properly, even if everything else is right in the mix...IT WILL FAIL TO CONNECT. it's a priority, that's what i'm saying, above all else....but of course, you can still keep working at the other stuff too, but that DEPTH perspective is CRITICAL. darn, it's all critical lol.

NB: a Hall reverb signals the HEIGHT perspective...it's NOT enough because height is only one part of the equation/dimension game. you also need to make this hall reverb work....unfortunately it's not at the moment because you aren't applying it correctly within the context of your vision.

when you start to research this subject in more detail, the above will begin to make sense.

[capitals for emphasis, not shouting]

'asta!
Dave

PS: i'm going to drop this in as an afterthought....but it's essential that you are conscious of it....NOT MANY MUSICIANS UNDERSTAND ACOUSTICS...SO WHEN THEY RECORD, THEIR MIC IS CAPTURING THE AMBIANCE OF THEIR ROOM (only 1 out of 500,000 will know how to professionally treat their room so this effect is minimised, and of these, only 1 out of 10,000,000 can afford to treat it. now this ambiance becomes a problem at mixing. you can't remove it. the brain hears this....and understands the space. now, if you apply a different ambiance on top of this...WHAT DO YOU GET?

Great advice here.