ThePhonk's mix

[uzilevi]

soooooooooooory i listen to this song and not to mine i dont have a problem with the bassin mine its only on this song . i had a long day and i thougt this in my mix .so i agree with you the bass need to be even and have more hi end in it. again soory for thet marc ......

[Mike Senior]

I'm curious of what will then happen to the vocal. It has only minimal reverb (or so I thought). More prominent is a 23/27ms (L/R) delay send, which, in my perception, pushes the vocal a bit forward. I did a similar thing on the flute and will check how similar they actually are, and where they differ.

Maybe it's that delay I'm hearing, then. It might be neither too... Wouldn't be the first time I've guessed the wrong reason for something I'm hearing, Basically it just feels that the vocal is further away from me that seems right instinctively, so whatever draws it more forward is going to make me happy. (Incidentally, my gut feeling is that short delays actually tend to blend a vocal, rather than pushing it forward, but that kind of judgements is inevitably subjective.)

There is only one thing that I do not understand: what is an "'enveloping' bass sound"? I mean, I understand you think that I created one, but... I still don't have the slightest idea :-)

It's partly all that low end, which rolls around the room when you're listening and wraps you up in a warm blanket. But it's also a sense I'm getting of stereo width to the bass -- is there a chorus effect or something on it? Not sure again, but that's a bit what it sounds like.

[ThePhonk]

soooooooooooory i listen to this song and not to mine i dont have a problem with the bassin mine its only on this song . i had a long day and i thougt this in my mix .so i agree with you the bass need to be even and have more hi end in it. again soory for thet marc ......

Hm... I'm not sure if I understand fully what you are apologizing for... but anyway, I think having many mixes of a song to compare is a good thing, and confusing them from time to time is a fair price to pay for such an opportunity. Never mind, happens to me too!

Marc

[ThePhonk]

Yes, Mike,

[...]Basically it just feels that the vocal is further away from me that seems right instinctively, so whatever draws it more forward is going to make me happy. (Incidentally, my gut feeling is that short delays actually tend to blend a vocal, rather than pushing it forward, but that kind of judgements is inevitably subjective.)

I see your point very clearly now. What I am curious about is if the vocal will already sit right when the "ride" steps back, or if the vocal itself needs a push. After switching between the reverb and the delay on the vocal a couple of times, I tend to agree that the reverb is indeed already too much.

To say that the delay "pushes forward" the vocal may have been a bit sloppy of me. I agree that it mainly blends the vocal, insofar not "pushing" it. To me, it anchors the vocal on the soundstage, by lending a certain 'positional plausibility' to it. But in doing so, it hints at a position closer to the listener than a reverb would point to. Insofar placing the vocal "forward". I may mishear or overthink things here; I just want to make clear(er) what I had in mind.

I will play with it :-)

It's partly all that low end, which rolls around the room when you're listening and wraps you up in a warm blanket. But it's also a sense I'm getting of stereo width to the bass -- is there a chorus effect or something on it? Not sure again, but that's a bit what it sounds like.

Ah, that envelope! I was thinking "ADSR" :-) If that's what an "enveloping bass sound" is, than I am all for it! For this song, anyway.

What I did with the bass was to turn down the amp'ed bass a bit, and low-cut it at 200 Hz or so, go get some right-hand texture without too much of the unevenness of the low end. I think that's in line with what you suggested in your "About" post.

Oh, and I delayed the DI bass by 1 ms, after looking closely at the waveforms and finding them to align slightly nicer this way. (uzilevi already warned me against relying on my eyes too much.)

Other than that (and a very restrained overall low-cut), I did nothing. No chorus. Just basswool :-)

Thanks, Mike! I'm looking forward to working again on this song!

Marc

[Mike Senior]

What I am curious about is if the vocal will already sit right when the "ride" steps back, or if the vocal itself needs a push.

I reckon the vocal probably needs a push too. From my perspective if feels as if he should be a little forward of the guitar and ukelele, whereas at the moment he feels like just another face in the crowd, so to speak.

What I did with the bass was to turn down the amp'ed bass a bit, and low-cut it at 200 Hz or so, go get some right-hand texture without too much of the unevenness of the low end.

So you panned the DI and amped tracks?

[ThePhonk]

So you panned the DI and amped tracks?

Yes, Mike, to "center" :-)

What you are hearing may come not from the bass itself, but from elsewhere. Is it possible that the guitar interacts with the bass? It ranges quite deep.

A prime suspect may also be what I did to the guitar. It is essentially a two-tap delay (171ms left, 325ms right) which I tried (desperately) to focus on the ghost notes. My intent was to add a hint of a faster rhythmic texture in the 1 kHz range, but maybe it somehow drags the bass along...

I attached the Reaper project file, in case you want to look into this.

Marc

[Mike Senior]

I attached the Reaper project file, in case you want to look into this.

Thanks for that -- loaded it onto my machine and had a look. The culprit is your Old Skool Verb send, which is being fed from the bass buss. I thought there was something from the bass in the Sides component. It's also the Old Skool Verb that I reckon is probably distancing the vocal for me too. If you want some warmth and spread to the vocal without pulling it too far backward, then I'd probably try a plate with some predelay -- maybe an eighth-note. There are some good plate impulses on the Echochamber site if you've not got any handy.

Also noticed your 4% off-centre panning of the lead vocal. Intentional?

[ThePhonk]

[...] The culprit is your Old Skool Verb send, which is being fed from the bass buss. I thought there was something from the bass in the Sides component. It's also the Old Skool Verb that I reckon is probably distancing the vocal for me too. If you want some warmth and spread to the vocal without pulling it too far backward, then I'd probably try a plate with some predelay -- maybe an eighth-note. [...]

Also noticed your 4% off-centre panning of the lead vocal. Intentional?

Ouch... a reverb send on the bass buss... why didn't I see that? Who placed it there in the first place? And why didn't I hear that, blaring at -42 dB...?

No, really, I am impressed. I would concede the possibility that the reverb send makes an extremely subtle difference on the bass when I solo the bass and the reverb return. But I would never have spotted it in the mix! Where did you get those ears from?!

Anyway, apologies for missing that.

You are right, that same reverb is what pulls the vocal back. I'll fix it one way or another.

The vocal's panning of 4% to the right was intentional (not so sure about the reverb send on the bass), to counterbalance the guitar, which lives on the left.

Thanks for further enhancing my todo list :-)

Marc

[Mike Senior]

I would concede the possibility that the reverb send makes an extremely subtle difference on the bass when I solo the bass and the reverb return. But I would never have spotted it in the mix!

My mix room is drier than most, and I'm monitoring very much in the nearfield, so that may make it more clearly audible here.

The vocal's panning of 4% to the right was intentional (not so sure about the reverb send on the bass), to counterbalance the guitar, which lives on the left.

Interesting reason, although not the one I'd expected. That kind of panning is pretty minimal, so while I would justify it in terms of slightly spreading the central sources to increase the sense of separation in stereo, I'm not sure it really counterbalances the guitar -- that's more the ukelele doing that.

Just had another glance at the project. There's some other unusual panning too -- both room mics 8% right, for instance. Not that it really poked me in the eye as being odd when I listened, so it's all pretty academic in practice -- a lot of stereo information's lost on most people anyway!

[ThePhonk]

My mix room is drier than most, and I'm monitoring very much in the nearfield, so that may make it more clearly audible here.

I couldn't even hear it on headphones

The vocal's panning of 4% to the right was intentional (not so sure about the reverb send on the bass), to counterbalance the guitar, which lives on the left.

Interesting reason, although not the one I'd expected. That kind of panning is pretty minimal, so while I would justify it in terms of slightly spreading the central sources to increase the sense of separation in stereo, I'm not sure it really counterbalances the guitar -- that's more the ukelele doing that.

Well, "counterbalance" was too strong a word. It's a homoeopathic dose of counterbalance, if you will. Here, I hear that the reverb works to my advantage, and makes the 4% sound like at least 4.8% ! But I agree with your verdict below.

To my ears, the ukulele alone does not fully counterbalance the guitar because it has somehow less 'structural weight'.

Untangling the center is something that I often try, but not this time. I did not see much reason.

Just had another glance at the project. There's some other unusual panning too -- both room mics 8% right, for instance. Not that it really poked me in the eye as being odd when I listened, so it's all pretty academic in practice -- a lot of stereo information's lost on most people anyway!

I panned the (stereo) overheads to center and then panned the (mono) rooms so that they matched the position of the overhead snare. I just tried this again and find that a) 8% is not far enough, it should be considerably more, and b) it might have been smarter to pan-match the ride, and perhaps cut the snare out of the overheads altogether.

Something else to revisit !

Marc