Too Bright mix from a newbie

[r00tman]

Hi everybody!
As you can see I'm very new to this forum and that's my first submission.
I was absolutely shocked by the quality of this multitrack. I never had anything that was recorded as good as this one.
Everything was mixed in three hours. (Just my ears have got fatigued so I thought I should stop)
Cheers.
P. S. Also, how to get vox levels right?

[APZX]

Typing as I listen:

Somewhat bold move keeping the rhodes so bassy. Drums sound pretty crisp. Vocal is perhaps a bit too "edgy" and could use some more obvious reverb to give it a better sense of space. Though it does sound quite intimate. The chorus has no impact at all. The song actually loses energy going into it. Drums are weaker sounding, vocals are weaker sounding, and the bass loses power as well. Again the vocal sounds a bit too "edgy" and what I mean by that is you've got it right up to the point where it really should be down just a notch in the high end. Again the drums sound pretty good in the verse as does the rhodes and the synths. Then the chorus comes up and you lose all impact and power. Try using the stereo field to make it "bigger" sounding. Use EQ to control the difference between the two different sections of the track. Good job on the guitars though! That sounds good nice and in the back with the wubby synth placement just perfect. Then another chorus pops in and it just loses all impact again. That guitar at the very end though sounds all right.

So, yeah basically the biggest problem with this mix IMO is simply the chorus. You got the verses pretty much spot on. Almost sounds like you're limiting it a bit too much. First thing I would do is focus on which instrument is doing what and what you want it to contribute to the song in that section. Also, give that low end room to breathe. That will help a lot with opening up the chorus. Really you kind of want the song to explode there as the verse is pretty quite and timid. Then again so is the chorus but you have to make the chorus come more alive. Get aggressive with the EQ because you need to be aggressive with it in this song.

For the most part you really ignored the stereo field except for some delays. Use it more to your advantage. It will help create better separation of the instruments and allow you more room to work with.

Now, regarding the vocal levels. Honestly it sounds like if you get the chorus to impact harder then the vocal issue will probably sort itself out. At least if I'm right in what I suspect, that is a bit too much limiting. You'd be surprised at how simple of an adjustment can make such a big change in the way something sounds.

[pauli]

P. S. Also, how to get vox levels right?

Welcome

There are no specific rules as to what the right vocal level should be in the mix... And remember that level isn't everything... The level can be just right to convey the melody but the harmonics are being masked by other instruments such that it's hard to understand the lyrics, that's almost always a bad thing.

Again there are no rules... But in most styles of popular music, the kick, snare, bass and vocal will occupy most of the mix, so start by balancing the vocal against those. Usually, if the vocal and snare are about the same level, you're on the right track.

If you have no compunction against using a compressor on the stereo buss, it's often helpful to rough in drums and bass during the fullest chorus section, dial in a couple db of gain reduction on the compressor, then fade in the vocal until it starts tickling the compressor a bit. Properly set, the compressor is a good guideline as to where the song should peak dynamically, and it will help blend the tracks together by giving them a common sonic element and a little control. If you've roughed in the vocals as suggested and the lyrics aren't coming across, then it's a good time to start looking at compressing the vocal itself until you can get it a little closer without working the master compressor too hard. The same applies to new supporting instruments that you introduce. Suppose you fade in a guitar until the level feels right, but it's overworking the comp, sounds indistinct, or obscures the vocal... Probably it will do all 3... But that's your mix telling you that the guitar needs some dynamics processing and subtractive EQ to slot it into the mix without conflict.

That's what I love about compressing the master, especially on a tune like this. Even if you aren't sure what's mucking up your mix, a properly set master compressor will warn you when something's wrong, and if you pay attention to it, you'll be able to head off major mix issues down the line.

Hope some of that helps... Welcome to the forum.

[laurieharrison]

Hi,
Yeah, the verse/chorus dynamic is the main issue. The verse in itself sounds pretty good, but the vocals and drums both sound smaller and quieter in the chorus than in the verse. That's not just about the levels - you need to look at the ambience as well - I think the very dry approach works fine in the verse, but more delays, reverb and modulation in the chorus would help to make it bigger than the verse. The other thing that's missing for me is any kind of sweeteners - without them, this track sounds quite samey throughout - need to help it build and develop with little spot FX, changes between sections etc.

[pauli]

That's not just about the levels - you need to look at the ambience as well - I think the very dry approach works fine in the verse, but more delays, reverb and modulation in the chorus would help to make it bigger than the verse.

Huge +1, I agree entirely. Bigger reverbs and delays can sound too conspicuous in the verse, as well.

Consider using an entirely different set of reverb/delay patches for different song sections to add interest and move things forward

[r00tman]

Huge thanks for taking the time to have a listen.
Chorus was really wrong in this mix. Chorus drums and vocals should have much more sustain, and chorus itself should has more power. I'm thinking about adding some sweeteners.
Also, the thing is wrong with mixes is that I fear to change something heavily. For example, I'm dropping a mb compressor on the master buss and making it very subtle, or I'm adding some reverb on vox and drums but making it -21 dB. Though I've managed to over-limit it all to -8.5 LUFS.
Tomorrow I'll post an improved one.

[pauli]

This is my personal opinion, also the opinion of many others I'm aware of, but since compressing the mix will subtly (or sometimes not so subtly) alter the internal balance, the compressor on the stereo buss should be put into place very, very early in the mixing process. When you fade the other instruments into the active compressor, you'll also be simultaneously compensating for the way the compressor will affect their levels relative to the mix, and you'll have the ability to apply compression and EQ to each channel to further control its relationship with the compressor. Whereas when you add even a small stereo buss compressor at the end of the mixing process, it can be somewhere between difficult and impossible extract the full benefits of compression without having to go back into the mix and re-process almost everything... better off leaving that to a mastering engineer.

So is it possible that's the source of your reluctance?

If you're overcooking the dynamics, there's one simple thing you can do from the very start of the mix that will help.... turn your monitors up!!! Be smart though and get an SPL meter so that you're not cooking your ears. 80dB is about the highest safe level of extended sound exposure, and that's right in the neighborhood of where most people's hearing is the most linear, so I'll find the monitor setting that meters around 80 dB on a commercial mix and turn the monitors up about 25% louder before I start pushing up faders, and I'll shoot for around 80 dB on the rough balance. Ever since I adopted that strategy, I've not once run out of headroom Give it a shot.

[APZX]

Rootman,

Why such a focus on numbers? A mix is a mix. It doesn't matter how loud it is just how good it sounds. Does it bring out the emotion, does it make it you want to get up an dance, does it make you want to cry, does it make you want to go hit something? You're not mixing it to a standard. You're mixing it to sound as good as it can sound. Don't worry so much about how the average loudness is. My current mix of this sits at a paltry ~-34dBFS RMS.

Just make it sound good!

And no I'm done with it yet. I'm still debating about a few things. Close though.

[pauli]

Where I live a -8.5 LUFs master would get turned down and peak-limited quite severely on the radio, so it makes sense to think about the numbers from that standpoint... a -34 dBFS master would be normalized to the standard so that's not such a big deal. I think iTunes normalizes everything to something like -16 LUFS, so for a home studio master that's probably a pretty reasonable target. But when you're mixing, I agree with APZX entirely... focus on the music and how it makes you feel. Give yourself plenty of headroom, keep the gain reduction on the master buss modest and worry about loudness in mastering.

Having said all that... I'd have to try really hard to master to -8.5 LUFS. It takes a lot of compression, either channel by channel or on the master (probably both), to get a mix that loud... I'd probably have to force myself to push it that hard. You might be mixing things in an unhelpful order, pushing up on less important instruments first only to find you're fighting for headroom by the time you're working in the rhythm section... used to happen to me all the time.

[APZX]

Pauli,
I mix such that -20dBFS corresponds to 81dB SPL. Mostly as a result of how my monitor controller is set up. That should explain the reason why it is so low. I mean after I do some of the basic normalization stuff it should come out to be a much more reasonable listening level.