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Blue: Updated
#21
You the man, Pat. You've already been an outstanding participant, very generous in your comments and criticisms... and you're a good sport in recognizing the difficulties with this multi, too.

I think one thing you can do straight away to improve this (or something with similar challenges) is double track the vocal. Or triple. I'd avoid printed on effects such as the stereo delays on the guitars, too, because they tend to make mixing a lot harder.. any stereo source with lots of low to mid stuff poses that risk.

Another thing that made this tricky is the massive volume difference in the printed on tracks, which can make staging the gains a much more challenging process. I don't like to do this, but I was tempted to normalize a few of the drum tracks to help with all of this.

Personally I'm not as opposed to micing vox with dynamics, but a quality pre-amp really is a must... what kind do you use?
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#22
Thanks pauli! Good tips!

I have used double-tracking on a few of my songs, and it's effective indeed, I just didn't recognize that this could have helped here.

For the guitars, I quite like the stereo delay on the Kemper, it's part of the sound I dial, so it seems natural to print it. I never print the built-in reverb though, but yes, I understand that having stereo sources can be more challenging, I should probably try to go without - on my latest songs, I've also tracked a parallel DI so that I can re-amp at will.

The volume difference is not something I mind though, I'm usually mixing as I go, as I arrange and record new things. The drums tracks in the files provided I've bounced them from Superior Drummer, so this is the level it is outputting them, I don't think it even goes through the build-in mixer for that which could have been more balanced as I had already dialed the levels.
I didn't realize it could be a problem, sorry, I'm afraid all the multitracks I've sent to Mike will have this problem at least.

As to pre-amps, I'm using the built-in preamps of my audio interface (RME Fireface UCX) which are very clean and have a very low noise floor.
I've tried using a GoldenAge Pre-73 MkII but I hated it, it was adding a lot of noise for much improvement in the sound, so I've sold it.
"Music, in performance, is a type of sculpture. The air in the performance is sculpted into something." - Frank Zappa

Some air moved here
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#23
(04-11-2014, 05:00 AM)pauli Wrote: ... So many instruments are dominant in the same frequency ranges that it's really hard to pick what wants to be heard from moment to moment.
I sucked a bunch of 500 or so out of EGT1, which is where a lot of the vibes seemed to live. --And I tucked EGT2 and the Rhodes way back until the 2nd half of the tune... :^)
Quote:...The bass midi is useful for layering in a sub synth in much the same manner to help pin down the low end a bit... and I'll almost definitely wind up replacing/augmenting the drums...
I tried both MaxxBass to add some low-mids and then Renaissance Bass to add some sub... Didn't like them. I ended up with just a little EQ dip at about 80 and a little bump at about 250 to tame a few notes in those ranges... --Oh, and a few dB high shelf cut... I try not to go the VI route unless absolutely necessary...
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#24
(04-11-2014, 06:09 AM)pauli Wrote: Yeah, that midrange buildup can be a huge mixing hurdle because it often tricks us into pushing the highs too hard. Eq boosts for the most part are trouble waiting to happen Smile
Words of wisdom! I try to extend the bottom & top first, which makes a wider mid-range to work in.
Quote:Not really sure what to do about the vocals, though, with the tonal changes... There are a few lyrics that can be cut and pasted to dodge some of it, but automation, dynamic eq, multiband compression... None of that is responding the way I'd like. Any tips you have on that score would be welcomed.
I'm a "less-is-more" guy, but I ended up doing a bunch on the lead vocal: I automated a gain plugin to even the levels into the rest of the processing, which was a compressor, a multiband comp (doing radical de-essing and low mid removal), a CLA-2, another de-esser and an EQ (with a few automated low dips.)


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#25
(14-11-2014, 03:52 AM)Mike_K Wrote: I tried both MaxxBass to add some low-mids and then Renaissance Bass to add some sub... Didn't like them. I ended up with just a little EQ dip at about 80 and a little bump at about 250 to tame a few notes in those ranges... --Oh, and a few dB high shelf cut... I try not to go the VI route unless absolutely necessary...

With the exception of guitars and vocals, these are all virtual instruments anyway, so I think some tasteful layering is more than appropriate, personally Big Grin

If it helps with any future stab you might take at this, I used the bass midi to trigger a basic no-nonsense triangle-wave synth with all content rolled off from 80 on up... I was having serious listening issues with the bass at the time though, so it might not have been necessary. A few have commented that my bass is a bit grandiose Tongue

Thanks for your input Big Grin
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#26
(05-11-2014, 10:34 AM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: ...sibilance is a [major] problem....the mike is causing other issues too, one is the proximity which then makes it difficult to place in the mix depth-wise, the other is the tonal variations and balance...
Hey, whatever doesn't kill you... :^) I learned some ways to tame a 57... --Unless Patrick tells me I destroyed his voice... in which case it's back to the drawing board... :^\
My main problem was the splattering on some esses (S's?) "Scarlet dreSS" in V1; "SHee floats around" in B1... Miking the corner of the mouth might fix it...
Quote:... i like Patrick's vocal character, it deserves a far better mike Wink

I totally agree. There are some good inexpensive mic options these days.
Quote: ...Personally, from a Producer's perspective, i'd like to have some double-tracking to work with, i think this would add some synergy to the song.
I don't know about THIS song, but a dbl track is sometimes nice to have. Nothing like it...
Quote: i don't know if Patrick used headphones during tracking, but i'd recommend a review of strategy, because it might be contributing to his challenge remaining in key

I think my only real pitch problems were towards the ends of phrases. I'd recommend breathing deeper! :^)

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#27
I really liked what you did on your version Mike_K! I think you managed to get a great tone out of these bad takes!

I do have better mics (Blue Sparks and ADK Hamburg, which is a very nice condenser) but somehow I didn't like it the sound I got from them when I tracked a first version of that song (might have been a bad day too! Big Grin), so I tried the SM57, like it better, and abused the proximity effect, and of course I realized much later how bad an idea it was... oh! well. I won't do it again, for sure.

I agree that I don't think this song needed doubled vocals. I do that regularly for other songs, but this one just didn't fit the bill IMHO.

I do use headphones, but I'm can't say I'm really comfortable singing with them. I usually set the music level quite low so that I hear myself in the room more than from the mix return. I even considered tracking with no headphones in front of my monitors and using phase cancellation to negate the room later. I still have to experiment with it.
And yes, I need to practice singing! I feel much more of a musician than a singer Smile
"Music, in performance, is a type of sculpture. The air in the performance is sculpted into something." - Frank Zappa

Some air moved here
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