Audio-Technica Demo: 'Loud And Clear'

[pauli]

Personal preference is pretty important, too.

[takka360]

Un important more like

[Olli H]

I listened to your first and last mix on same level, difference was not so big to me, but still I think the first one was better, more groovy and interesting. So, you're probably pretty good at making loud mixes.

[takka360]

Cheers for feedback.As I said I don't go out of my waty to make loud mixes its just gain staging I never really push my limiter much more than 1-2 db.

[The_Metallurgist]

hi Olli,

I listened to your first and last mix on same level, difference was not so big to me......

when you say "level", do you mean "loudness matched", in accordance with R128? out of interest, what processor did you use to adjust the tracks, may i ask?

.....but still I think the first one was better, more groovy and interesting.

with the first one, the vocal is clearly taking a major hit within the compression/limiting regime. i suspect there was a lot of dynamics from the vocal when it was brought over from the mix for mastering. the vocal tracking was quite difficult to control dynamically, and given most instrumentation in the mix is fighting within the vocal's key frequency range, it's pretty tempting to push the vocal up in the mix just to get it heard. this "push" in the vocal's level will be the first to hit the limiter in the master buss and result in it's distortion from over compression. this is what i conclude is happening here.

so, under processing, the vocal is being squashed very hard while the other instrumentation is being brought up in the mix by way of dynamic reduction, and this is why people are engaging in the file more readily - ear candy...the loudness perceived better...

i know Alan has a liking for compression and generally produces far hotter mixes than my listening tastes and pleasure can endure. that's not a criticism at least not in a direct sense, because in the current environment that's the way the Industry has driven itself. if you want to be "mix competitive" using old Loudness War jargon, the pressure to meet, or even exceed those expectations was pretty huge. some modern genres thrive on this (gain pumping, etc etc), others don't.

my personal concerns, especially in a world that's beginning to get more sensitive to the loudness issue (the fairly recent EBU R128 regulation being a case in point), is that hot mixes, certain genres accepted of course, are on the way out. what happens if we don't evolve and adapt? work that's highly compromised (by compromised, i'm talking in terms of LUFS expectations in accordance with R128), a mix like this when played on the radio, would sound acoustically poor because the radio station would need to "turn it down" to comply with broadcast standards. the nett result would be a less than impressive mix, while the more dynamic ones would sound significantly better.

my first post mentioned my headphones nearly falling off my head? it's one reason why the R128 standard came about - to keep output levels consistent, so we consumers don't have to keep reaching for the volume knob out of panic!

if i gave a -14 LUFS file to a radio station, they'd compress it to -12LUFS so their broadcast levels would be consistant. however, if they took Alan's master, at -7.? LUFS integrated, this audio would take a major 5 LUFS loudness hit. it wouldn't sound so exciting compared to a more dynamic track. quite the opposite, actually. furthermore, i'd contest that a hot mix that sometimes seeing loudness values in the range of -5.0 LUFS short term and 0dB limited (especially when it's then encoded to a lossy format), would definitely be causing distortion over most consumer devices.

i gave Alan a sportsman's challenge in an earlier posting. i bet him that he couldn't produce a -14LUFS master. he duly reciprocated with an equal challenge. i'm close to finishing this mix and i'm currently exceeding -15LUFS integrated. it can be done...but i'll be quite candid in saying that it is difficult, especially as i personally lean towards a -10 to -12 LUFS mix naturally (i.e. i don't aim for a loudness when working, but they tend to come out like this).

Please keep the The tread up Alan, i've put in some time here and i think the wider community might benefit from these kinds of discussion?

keep it coming guys..
cheers
Dave

[Olli H]

In generally I prefer mixes with more dynamic, but in this case I'm not making statements.

These are different mixes and. I'm just comparing these two mixes in the same loudness level. I listeneded again, and I think that the first mix is more coherent soundwise.
- For example in the first mix drums and bass create better pair.
- And also I like more the vox panning desiciouns in first mix.
- In second mix there's more low-end, but I think that hi-end and low-end are better pair in the first mix.
- First one has better precence of the band.
- In the second mix the vox is more floating alone in front of band.
- To me neither mixes has harsh top end.

Normally I match references with TT dynamic range meter or bx_meter, but I'm not making it to science. Instead I'm constantly listening level matched versions against my mixes. In this case I didn't bring them into DAW, but I volume mateched them by ear with QuickTIme volume slider. As I'm doing this kind of level matching all the time when I'm mixing, I feel that I'm not so easily fooled my minimalistic differences in level.

I don't listen so much radio. I listen music mainly directly from CD, and CD player's are not doing level matching. So the stupid demand for loudness is not yet over. You (Dave) gave Alan a sportman's challange to make a more dynamic version. How about responding with another challange? As you're a professional mastering engineer, you're probably very familiar with how to make things loud. Ignorant clients demand that, don't they? So, after you've done your mix-version with -14 LUFS level, how about making a loud mastered version, where you try to match Alan's loudness level and quality. I know that I won't be able to do that.

[pauli]

Once again though, it's important to remember that the mastering engineer's duty isn't to make the mix louder... in the case of singles mixes, it's about polishing and getting it ready for the radio, which most times includes enhancing the loudness. Mastering engineers also commonly automate volume, increasing the overall mix dynamics. As the EBU recommendations become standard, and they already are here in the US... there's a local radio station where I live that chooses to pay fines rather than comply with the rules, excessively loud masters will suffer by being turned down to maintain the average loudness of the broadcast.

But when we start talking about the real duty of a mastering engineer, mastering a record (am I old fashioned?), it gets more complicated. Then you're talking about maintaining a relatively consistent level across 10 ten songs with long term dynamics across the entire work. And you've got to figure out how to pull that off while maintaining a unified overall tonality and without compromising the vision of the mix engineer, who hopefully was working closely enough with the artist so as to represent her vision at its best.

It makes me dizzy... but it's part of why loudness doesn't worry me. Won't be long before it doesn't make a difference. There's much talk about CD players and internet radio being held to the -14LUFS recommendation that's receiving strong support, at least here. The fact that a dance tune with a loudness range of 8 decibels tore up the charts around the entire world last year is evidence that it's not important.

But some people like hot mixes, too. That's not a big deal either... if the CD player turns them down, well that's why they come with volume knobs.

[takka360]

Its all about a mix at the end of the day.Not -14 LUFS or mastering engineers .Do people like it, do they not is the question really.
If I was mixing this for a client I would ask what he wanted for a start.
This is a quick mix of an hour or two no more than that.I have been working on a track with someone for a major label and two days into it the vox are not even ready.

[pauli]

LOL I've spent probably 6 hours on this mix and I'm still falling way short of your version, so my thoughts should be taken lightly

[takka360]

falling way short of your version? not at all your version is just different We are all different in what we like.
If you are looking for someone to mix a hiphop track you don't go to Eddie Kramer do you.