13-01-2024, 11:24 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2024, 11:25 PM by Nick.)
I graduated from Full Sail in 2019. Since then, I have been trying to become a professional mix engineer, but I always feel like my work isn't good enough. I never listen to my mixes and think "wow, I did good". I'm always thinking that something feels wrong about it, but I've heard the song so many times that I've lost grip on all reality and can't figure it out. Even the mix I did for this song is not perfect and I know that from the bottom of my heart. There is stuff wrong with this, and it drives me crazy that I can't just get it right in a reasonable amount of time without revising it for months and checking my car back and forth 100 times. I tried to only spend about 1-2 days on this. I'd love to start my own recording studio in Charleston, SC (that's where I live), but I'm so afraid that artists are going to notice that my mixes aren't up to the standard it needs to be.
Any feedback might help, thanks!
Ok. I’ll dive into this even though I maybe one of the worst people on here. I delete 90% of my mixes because I hate them, but, I have some experience with working with clients and confidence and all that.
I tend to write a lot so I’m going to be fairly terse. You need confidence to mix. Like pretty much anything. Don’t get into a car with someone who isn’t confident to drive.
You have to know where the mix should go. Listen to the rough and/or reference tracks. Get an idea of where the mix should go. You absolutely need a destination. Mixing isn’t adding things together and hoping it works. Part of the reason people keep working on mixes is because they didn’t have a destination. And what often fails a mix is trying to hard to force it to a destination. I know for me I often get lazy and focus on making something brighter or have more low end or whatever to try to force some excitement. And then I just have a hyped bad mix. Ask yourself ‘what makes a good mix’ so you at least have some idea of where to go. Sonics are only part of it.
Most of one’s mix issues (in general) are a matter of perspective. And perfect has nothing to do with it. What works for me when I have confidence issues is listening to some song by an artist I like or at least think have some good mixes. I’ll listen and think it sounds good and then imagine myself sitting in front of a console with that mix coming out and then I hear flaws and issues and things that I imagine I did wrong. I’m sure the mix engineer might feel that way too. And nothing changes besides the perspective.
Figure out what you’re chasing in a mix that might be more on the mastering side. We’re all referencing stuff that is finished and polished and mastered and that affects one’s perspective and we’re trying to get a mix to be at that level from the get go. Figure out if that might be bogging you down.
Don’t look at mixes in terms of months(!) or even days. Especially if working with clients, you have to get a mix done in hours. You have to find those points that hold you up. I’ve spent days on mixes from this site only to scrap it and get a better mix in an hour.
There a whole lot more that can be said about working with clients. But that’s probably not the most important thing right now. That said, one of the most helpful things for your confidence is working with artists to get some real time feedback and not work in a vacuum. Again, I’ve not been happy with any of my mixes, for the most part but I’ve had happy clients. And that helps. Oh and never tell a client “no”.
Also, time. Don’t listen to a mix for a few weeks or whatever. you’ll often forget the small bits that bothered you and see the big picture.
14-01-2024, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2024, 05:22 PM by mikej.)
Hi!
I'll add some of my thoughts:
I've had a quick listen and the mix sounds really good to me overall. Nice intro.
Only minor nitpicks - the kick might be a touch loud and the vocals might get touch buried for my tastes at points, not sure. I'll have to try and give it a listen on monitors tomorrow if I can though, as I'm listening on IEMs that are new to me and I'm not quite dialled in to them yet so not 100% sure.
(13-01-2024, 11:24 PM)Nick Wrote: I graduated from Full Sail in 2019.
Congrats!
Quote:Since then, I have been trying to become a professional mix engineer, but I always feel like my work isn't good enough.
I only practice mixing on here, so can't really help with that side of things. There's a few people on here that do mix for clients though that might be able to give some advice and share their experience. If you are lucky you might get some artist feedback here too if you pick the right mixes and they happen to see your post.
Personally I do find you need a bit of distance from a mix to judge it properly yourself. You need to give it enough time so you forget totally how it sounds. Some old mixes I find are better than expected, others a lot worse. Sometimes comments on mixes are totally the opposite to what I expected too - like a mix I think I've probably made a total mess of gets positive comments, and vice-versa (more usual!).
Quote:I never listen to my mixes and think "wow, I did good".
Think I only have a few mixes that I truly thought this. I find it can sometimes take a surprising amount of effort to get there too. My mixes generally suck. You do need to somehow get some level of confidence all the same.
Quote:I'm always thinking that something feels wrong about it, but I've heard the song so many times that I've lost grip on all reality and can't figure it out.
Take a break for a day or two and come back to it? Try starting over from scratch? Some big mixers mix a song two or three times and try to beat their previous mix, to ensure they gave it their best. Sometimes it can take a while to pin down and fix the thing that you think feels wrong. Sometimes that's a clue that the mix is not quite done yet.
You might have to keep chasing it until you get a mix that you do feel is great, then you'll know what that feeling is and what it takes for future reference.
Quote:Even the mix I did for this song is not perfect and I know that from the bottom of my heart. There is stuff wrong with this, and it drives me crazy that I can't just get it right in a reasonable amount of time without revising it for months and checking my car back and forth 100 times. I tried to only spend about 1-2 days on this.
No deadlines on here - which can both be a good or a bad thing. What do you think is wrong with the mix? Posting direct questions of things you are not sure about might get some useful response here if you are lucky.
Is a car really the best place to evaluate a mix - is this a bit of a cliche these days? I don't think recording studios aim to emulate the acoustics of a car? Heh.
I think the trick is figuring out some techniques so you know the mix is at least good enough, if not perfect. Good feedback is also essential - so maybe try a few more mixes on here and see how it goes.
Quote: I'd love to start my own recording studio in Charleston, SC (that's where I live), but I'm so afraid that artists are going to notice that my mixes aren't up to the standard it needs to be.
Any feedback might help, thanks!
Can't help with that as I've no experience - but I'd imagine you won't get paid often if a mix is no good. I also imagine that you'd get feedback from clients that would help you to deliver what they want. Mixing ability aside - I'd imagine a good attitude and being generally cool to work with probably goes a long way too.
To be honest I think everything you've mentioned is quite normal - you've just got to have some tenacity to keep working at it and push through all the frustrations. Try and work out ways to keep on improving and figure out ways to reduce the guesswork. Create your own mix process - write a checklist, reference pro mixes, listen to new music, etc..
Although I've not tried it myself yet - Mike Senior does offer coaching and also a flash feedback services amongst other things that might be of use too.
Sorry this is a bit rambling, but hopefully there's something of use here, and it might prompt others to chime in too and give their thoughts on the mix.
From personal experience - post a few mixes and also comment on a few mixes you like and try asking a few questions, etc too. You might find you can build up a rapport with a few people and help each other to raise the game as it were.
It does help if you get stuck in and start a few conversations too. I find you have to be a lot proactive to get a little back, as it were - but that little back can be invaluable and get you where you want to be.
Cheers!
Edit: Oops - in my haste I didn't actually notice you'd been a member since 2018 but hopefully there might be something of use there all the same!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
15-01-2024, 06:07 AM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2024, 06:08 AM by FytaKyte.)
Hi Nick, overall I think your mix sounds pretty well balanced, frequency wise. Everything seems quite clear and present. You obviously know all the basic mixing principles (and then some), so I don't think the issue is a lack of technique or knowledge.
The thing that really stands out to me is that there doesn't seem to be much dynamic movement in the mix. It kind of just "sits" there.
For example, the drums are not punctuating the mix and "moving some air" like you would expect them to do in this genre. The more "static" elements like the guitar chords and synth washes are not really "interacting" with the rhythmic elements.
This is partially an issue with the arrangement of the track, but it is something that can be addressed by using side-chain compression to cause one element to "move" another. Not only does that type of thing give the static element a sense of "alive-ness" and "movement", but it also increases the perception of impact from the element you are using as the trigger (eg. drums)
This could also be a result of the "over-mixing" thing you mentioned. I would suggest that, in your quest to present a "perfectly controlled" mix, you are losing that vital sense of excitement and movement.
Try remembering what made you excited about wanting to do music in the first place, and then concentrate on getting the mix to make you feel "alive" in that same way that first moved you.
(13-01-2024, 11:24 PM)Nick Wrote: I graduated from Full Sail in 2019. Since then, I have been trying to become a professional mix engineer, but I always feel like my work isn't good enough.
When you say you're "trying to become" a professional mixer, do you mean you have already done work for paying clients?... or are you putting off doing paid mixes because, as you put it: "I always feel like my work isn't good enough"?
If it is the latter, then my suggestion would be to push aside your fears, jump in and get some paying clients.
The fact is, NOBODY ever feels like they are "qualified" to mix when they first start... but mixing for a client and just "doing mixes" are two totally different things. No matter how personally inadequate we might feel about our abilities, the only person we have to please when we mix for a client is our client. Once they've signed off on the mix, that's all that really matters. No one else's opinion counts.... then, move on to the next mix, and the next... I guarantee, with each mix, your abilities and your confidence will grow.
(13-01-2024, 11:24 PM)Nick Wrote: I never listen to my mixes and think "wow, I did good". I'm always thinking that something feels wrong about it, but I've heard the song so many times that I've lost grip on all reality and can't figure it out. Even the mix I did for this song is not perfect and I know that from the bottom of my heart. There is stuff wrong with this, and it drives me crazy that I can't just get it right in a reasonable amount of time without revising it for months and checking my car back and forth 100 times. I tried to only spend about 1-2 days on this.
Remember, NO mix is ever "perfect". Do your best with each client, and as your confidence grows, your ability to make great, concise sonic choices will too. Do the work, make the client happy, then move on.
(13-01-2024, 11:24 PM)Nick Wrote: I'd love to start my own recording studio in Charleston, SC (that's where I live), but I'm so afraid that artists are going to notice that my mixes aren't up to the standard it needs to be.
Any feedback might help, thanks!
The fact is no one's mixes are "up to standard" when they start. If they were, we could all immediately start mixing for major labels and pulling in $1k+ per mix right away!.. that's just not realistic.
...But until we "start" by trying to please just one paying client at a time, instead of a myriad of anonymous mixing wannabes on any number of Internet forums - or worse - some kind of imaginary, nebulous, highly intimidating "mixing standard" that doesn't really exist anyway, then we're effectively defeating ourselves before we start.
Some good feedback here that people have kindly taken their free time to write. I certainly found the replies interesting. Must say I'm surprised not to see any follow up from the OP yet, given the experience of the two people that gave the real advice in the thread. Could be a missed opportunity here OP!
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
17-01-2024, 11:31 PM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2024, 12:26 AM by Nick.)
I appreciate the feedback to everyone that replied.
Sometimes, I may actually think my mix is good, then the client doesn't like it or they went with a different mix. When that happens, all I can think about is "maybe it wasn't good...? Where did I go wrong?"
I have no IDEA how the pros can mix a song in a matter of hours. When I mix, it's like I have to check everything (my car, my earpods, my portable speaker, and whatever else) and that back-and-forth process takes a while and eats up my time. Yet, there's no way it ever feels right to send a client a mix without checking it everywhere just in case. I am really trying to get mixing down to as simple of a formula as I can so I can be as efficient as possible, but I know not all tracks are the same.
Does anyone know any reliable resources (paid or free, I don't care) that talk about handling clients? I feel like, deep down, clients really don't like my mixes. They say it's good, but I don't think they mean it. I think they're just thinking "ehh, this is probably the best the guy can do, and I just wanna move on". Having to deal with a million revisions every time I send a mix version can make the job incredibly dreadful. How am I supposed to aim to have no revisions when every client has a different taste? Am I supposed to just guess? This is why confidence isn't easy, because you really never know exactly what the client is thinking. Getting them to pay is a whole other nightmare too, but I don't even wanna get started on that issue since I might write a novel if I do. I feel that if I'm too strict/cutthroat with clients, then I will never have any even if my work is good. You can be a good, nice guy that's easy to work with, but what's the value in that if you can't deliver the quality? Not saying some basic hospitality doesn't matter, but I believe your skills are first priority. I know some engineers in my area that are teddy-bear nice, but their work sucks and no one wants to go to them. That seems basic to me, but there's so much more emphasis on the hospitality part than I think is deserved.
My mix needed automation. I think that's why it seemed so static. The problem is that I'm too slow. It takes me "hours" already just to make a static mix. Now I need to go in there and make little micro-automation moves throughout the song? It impresses me more and more how efficient people are at getting it to sound so pro so quickly. Is it just the raw tracks being really good to start with, or are they really able to "fix" bad tracks that fast? How long does it take to get to that level of efficiency? Better yet, what is one supposed to focus on in order to become faster?
I believe the better I am as as a mixer/engineer, the faster my name will spread, therefore the more demand I have, and then I can start raising my rates. I've pursued this for a while now, and this is what I would really like to do. I don't wanna have to be stuck flipping burgers forever. I feel like I'm so close yet so far.
Glad to get all of that off of my chest honestly. Hopefully that better explains what goes on in my mind.
18-01-2024, 01:04 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2024, 01:08 AM by mikej.)
Hi,
Bearing in mind that this is all advice from a rank amateur - just stuff I felt helped in some way:
Mixing wise -
Ken Lewis - Mixing Night Audio on Youtube. He does a 10 minute mix exercise at the start of each live episode which might be helpful. I do find his current presenting style a bit too loud and in your face for my taste. All the same I have picked up some useful tips when I've managed to watch. Might help with mixing faster.
James Lugo's Youtube channel shows the background prep work that goes in to label production. There's some videos where he goes over his mix template, plugin choices, and also a few full mix videos which might be useful.
Getting it down to a kind of formula would seem to be the right approach I feel.
Having a very small number of go to plugins, and also setting up a bunch of your own starting presets for them can speed things up a lot, as you are not second guessing what to use, and not going through the same starting moves each time (I mean you can just pick a starting preset and go from there, to save a bit of messing about).
Automation - spending time learning/setting up your daw's automation so using it is second nature helps. I have an old fader port that can be helpful too.
I have a basic template with the busses I'm likely to need, and a consistent way of organising and coloring tracks, so I know where everything is. I don't really have to think much about how I'm going to organise the session, I just have to do it.
I don't have any plugins in my template, but there's only really 3 or 4 plugins that I use mostly.
My basic list is:
Listen to play list of tracks designed to acclimatise ears
Organize tracks (whilst listening to playlist)
Put a couple of ref tracks in the session to refer to
Rough mix panning and volume only
(I kind of go - drums / bass / guitars / synths / vocals / backing vocals). I might start with the vocal.
Automation - eg vocal automation / manual de-essing, etc
Add plugins, etc - Usually eq, compression, reverb, delay, etc. in that order
Add mix bus comp / eq / limiting
Render, load in new DAW session along side other tracks for referencing.
Check next day on IEMS.
Make any fixes
Upload to forum
Get told it sucks, or have some issues pointed out that never occurred to me.
Decide whether I agree or not, then try and have a another go at it.
Do you have at least one mix under your belt that you think you really nailed? I think getting that can help confidence a lot and kind of sets an internal benchmark of what you can achieve, and how to get it.
Or just get a rough mix, chuck renaissance axx on each channel, slam it through ozone and call it a day .
Hopefully the real experts will be back with some proper advice - it might be worth sending a pm or two, as the public forum is really for discussing mixing rather than the business side of things.
As I mentioned before it might also be worth sending Mike Senior an email as he might possibly be able to do a bespoke session to cover some of the client stuff you mentioned too, perhaps? Certainly I wouldn't have thought that there would be any harm in asking.
Oh- the Working Class Audio podcast could be worth checking out too.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
(17-01-2024, 11:31 PM)Nick Wrote: Sometimes, I may actually think my mix is good, then the client doesn't like it or they went with a different mix. When that happens, all I can think about is "maybe it wasn't good...? Where did I go wrong?"
Working with clients is tricky. Sometimes the client doesn't know what they want or just want something completely different or, sometimes, straight up wrong. In the end it's their money and product so you just have to roll with it. You can make a perfectly fine mix that the client doesn't like.
Quote:I have no IDEA how the pros can mix a song in a matter of hours. When I mix, it's like I have to check everything (my car, my earpods, my portable speaker, and whatever else) and that back-and-forth process takes a while and eats up my time. Yet, there's no way it ever feels right to send a client a mix without checking it everywhere just in case. I am really trying to get mixing down to as simple of a formula as I can so I can be as efficient as possible, but I know not all tracks are the same.
There's nothing wrong with checking mixes on different systems. The main thing is to know your listening setups so you can trust decisions you make based on them. People check mixes in their car because they listen to the vast majority of music driving around. It makes sense. That said, you also have to have confidence in your main monitoring setup and let that be the final decider. Don't second guess yourself into circles checking on different systems. If that makes sense.
Quote:Does anyone know any reliable resources (paid or free, I don't care) that talk about handling clients? I feel like, deep down, clients really don't like my mixes. They say it's good, but I don't think they mean it. I think they're just thinking "ehh, this is probably the best the guy can do, and I just wanna move on". Having to deal with a million revisions every time I send a mix version can make the job incredibly dreadful. How am I supposed to aim to have no revisions when every client has a different taste? Am I supposed to just guess? This is why confidence isn't easy, because you really never know exactly what the client is thinking. Getting them to pay is a whole other nightmare too, but I don't even wanna get started on that issue since I might write a novel if I do. I feel that if I'm too strict/cutthroat with clients, then I will never have any even if my work is good. You can be a good, nice guy that's easy to work with, but what's the value in that if you can't deliver the quality? Not saying some basic hospitality doesn't matter, but I believe your skills are first priority. I know some engineers in my area that are teddy-bear nice, but their work sucks and no one wants to go to them. That seems basic to me, but there's so much more emphasis on the hospitality part than I think is deserved.
There are almost always revisions. That's just part of the mixing process and thankfully DAWs make it a lot easier. Maybe too easy. I've sometimes lost more faith in a client or project when they didn't ask for revisions because in the end they probably just didn't care.
Yes, in a way, you're just supposed to guess. That's part of the job. As the mixer you're supposed to come up with a product that makes the client happy. You can't read minds so you have to trust yourself to make what you think is a solid mix. There should be some discussion beforehand of what the client is aiming for, what the song needs, what other artists the client sounds like or just what they enjoy in general. Hopefully there's a rough mix to reference. But yeah, you have to mix with your own ears. Any other mixer will have to do the same.
Getting a client to pay can be difficult but you do have to have boundaries and you have to get paid. A client who doesn't pay isn't a client. You have to have a clear rate and make it clear what that entails. Just like any other profession. I could never imagine going to a mechanic and asking them to work on my car for free or without getting a rate from them. Nor would I expect the keys back before I paid. Same for anyone else in the music business.
Skills are...relative. Maybe they're the first priority but there's so much more to it than that. I've gotten gigs replacing much better engineers simple because I had a better demeanor in the studio. Could their work have been better? Maybe but the client was happier with me and that's all that mattered. I know I'd have no interest in working with a jerk no matter how skilled they were. Remember this is art. Skill is subjective.
Quote:My mix needed automation. I think that's why it seemed so static. The problem is that I'm too slow. It takes me "hours" already just to make a static mix. Now I need to go in there and make little micro-automation moves throughout the song? It impresses me more and more how efficient people are at getting it to sound so pro so quickly. Is it just the raw tracks being really good to start with, or are they really able to "fix" bad tracks that fast? How long does it take to get to that level of efficiency? Better yet, what is one supposed to focus on in order to become faster?
Yeah, generally with 'pro' mixers they're probably getting higher quality tracks. Though they would still make good mixes with less than stellar tracks. Keep in mind they have assistants who go through and clean up the tracks and get the routing and everything in order so when the mix starts the focus is on the mix.
As for automation I can't really speak on that much myself. I 'grew up' without it and just made moves on the fly. I've generally never made 'micro automation' moves while working in the box. Of the bigger mixers I've seen online they tend to make passes of mixes and recording moves and going by feel. I don't really feel it's something to get bogged down in. But that's just me. I do feel like people get stuck in the perception of what others do as opposed to what they actually do.
Quote:I believe the better I am as as a mixer/engineer, the faster my name will spread, therefore the more demand I have, and then I can start raising my rates. I've pursued this for a while now, and this is what I would really like to do. I don't wanna have to be stuck flipping burgers forever. I feel like I'm so close yet so far.
Glad to get all of that off of my chest honestly. Hopefully that better explains what goes on in my mind.
Being a better mixer/engineer only partially depends on the quality of the work. The other, probably more important part is being a quality, professional person that people want to work with.
Sorry to ramble and not having much to add, at least not coherently.
Just to add to all the stuff I already wrote I'll say:
Start 'mixing' with cleaned up tracks. Fix anything that needs fixing, cut out noises, add samples etc. Do all that busywork. Then start mixing. That way you follow the flow of what the song needs as opposed to getting bogged down in fixes and losing focus.
Develop a workflow. Mikej had a nice one in his post above. Have some roadmap in your head about where the mix is headed and what to keep focused on at that moment.
Give yourself a deadline. Especially if you're practicing a mix from here (or anywhere really). Say, four hours from the start of mixing. Or an hour or whatever. Get something done in that time. Don't give yourself a chance to second guess or tweak. Start with some songs that you like and are well recorded.
but hopefully there might be something of use there all the same!
.