Seal - A Kiss From A Rose

[mikej]

Hi!

Enjoyed the write up of this one, although it's taken me a while to get around to posting. I've actually been listening to Seal I and II (and also Dr Adamski's musical pharmacy - which was more my thing back in the day!) albums a bit the past few months.   

As my knowledge of time signatures doesn't extend beyond 4/4 time (possibly 3/4 at a push).  I wondered what makes this 3/8 rather than say 6/8? I have watched a few videos on the subject to try and get a better understanding, but not sure I'm any the wiser as regards this particular track.

As a listener I didn't think it sounded particularly tricky, but of course it is, isn't it, when you start looking at it.

I gave it a go at mapping this out (in 6/8...) I think I agree more with the suggestion 5+5+5+5 for the verse?

Intro:16 bars (4+4+4+4) + extra 2 beats before verse 1
Verse 1: 20 bars (5+5+5+5)
Pre Chorus: 8 bars (4+4)
Chorus: 24 bars (4+4+4+4+4+4)

extra 1 beat pause

Verse 2: 17 Bars (5+5+5+5 +2 extra bars)
Pre Chorus: 8 bars (4+4)

Chorus: 16 bars (4+4+4+4)

Instrumental break: 12 bars (4+4+4)

etc...

I read that initially Seal recorded the initial demo to a 4 track, and recorded vocal parts in lieu of instruments.  The vocal arrangement of this track is really good I think.

Cheers!

[Mix Review Link]

[Roy]

Well I'm not too familiar with the Kiss From a Rose and am fairly bad at rhythms so I looked up some notations for the song. It seems that there are the verse alternates between 6/8 and 9/8 (and maybe else where in the song I didn't dive in too deep).

I've never even thought that 3/8 is a thing but I suppose it's understandable to break it down to a common numerator. That said, I think breaking up the bars in 6/8 and 9/8 make sense phrasing of those bars.

Based on the notations I've read the the verse is: 6-6-9-6-9-6-9-6-6-6.
"There used to be a greying" 6/8
"Tower alone on the" 6/8
"Sea. You became the" 9/8
"light...." back to 6/8 etc

I suppose the bars of 9 can be felt as 3/8+6/8.
"Sea (3/8)" "You became.." 6/8
It feels a little easier to count that way but I can see how musically it can be better as 9/8.

I hope I'm making sense. I'm no musicologist and just blindly posting some thoughts on this.

Cheers.

[mikej]

Hi!

Yeah - I looked at some of the transcriptions and saw that some notated it as 6/8 and 9/8 bars. 

I think my main question might come from slightly misunderstanding the number of beats per bar and not knowing that there's simple time, and compound time.

Not sure if I've got this right yet -

3/8 = 3 eighth notes per bar.
6/8 = 6 eighth notes per bar. 2 beats per bar.
9/8 = 9 eighth notes per bar. 3 beats per bar.     

I'll have to dig into it a bit more.

Cheers!

[Roy]

* 3/8 and 6/8 = 3 or 6 eighth notes to a bar. But yeah, It sounds like you've got it. Then again I'm just figuring this out too. I've never had to read music beyond having to keep up with chord charts.
You may have seen this but it helped me understand a bit better.
https://youtu.be/N4q2kBe82-o

Also, I don't know which notations you've seen but this page was pretty cool because you can play a piano accompaniment along with the score. It helped having to go back and forth between the actual song.
https://musescore.com/user/184153/scores/4999069

Cheers

[mikej]

Hi,

Thanks. I found this on youtube as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WESkO21bw4.

I think I've solved the problem I was having...

It seems that for some reason for 6/8 time the grid on Reaper shows a measure (bar) as being one beat, not two. So if I set the grid spacing to '2x' instead of 'Measure' the bars line up as per the video above, and it makes a bit more sense. ie the note values all add up, and I think I now understand the difference between 3/8 and 6/8 time.

So I guess in my initial post I am actually showing the arrangement for 3/8 time as per Mike's write up - and I would halve the number of bars for 6/8 time.

Well, I think it all makes a bit more sense now anyway....

Cheers!

[Roy]

Cool. I didn't read the initial post my Mike Senior but this was an interesting rabbit hole to go down. I haven't thought too much about time signatures in a while. Not since trying to figure out the intro to March of the Pigs decades ago. There's another song I've been meaning to figure out to so maybe this will inspire me...

[mikej]

I edited post #3 to correct the couple of mistakes you pointed out.

Being more used to putting midi notes on the grid in the DAW in 4/4 time, the American note value names are a lot easier to understand than the British ones. I aslo need quite a bit more practice learning the written note values and the rests, etc.

Yeah this was a useful exercise. I doubt I will be sight reading any time soon, but it's starting to make a little more sense. At least I can sit down and kind work it out now.

Cheers!

[Mike Senior]

This is all fair game as far as I'm concerned -- whether you consider it as (like I did) groups of 3/8 bars or as (like the transcription does) as a pattern of 6/8 and 9/8 bars is equally valid. In either case the notation is clearly following after the musical fact, so it's only ever a tool for helping analyse and question how the rhythmic/metric structure makes us feel. For me the purpose is always about using examples like these to expand my own conception of what makes musical structures work, and perhaps to inspire some new songwriting ideas. Or, to put it another way, I think it's a great song and just want to see if I can learn something useful from it for my own work.

[Roy]

Fair enough. I do see the value in calling it (mostly) in 6/8. A musician given some notation may approach it differently if it was labeled as 6/8 or 3/8 or 3/4. I think that maybe the 9/8 bars are better described as 3/8 and 6/8.

I'm just being pedantic. In the end, as a listener, it doesn't really matter. But it is interesting to think about and there's a lot of nuances in this song and how it's sung am I'm glad I never had to punch in any of the vocals on it.

I will say that I've never really thought about this song that much. It was on Eastenders recently. I knew of it. That Batman song. I never realized how interesting of an arrangement it is. I can't even say I like it. It won't wind up in any playlist of mine but I've come to respect it.

[mikej]

This is all fair game as far as I'm concerned -- whether you consider it as (like I did) groups of 3/8 bars or as (like the transcription does) as a pattern of 6/8 and 9/8 bars is equally valid. In either case the notation is clearly following after the musical fact, so it's only ever a tool for helping analyse and question how the rhythmic/metric structure makes us feel. For me the purpose is always about using examples like these to expand my own conception of what makes musical structures work, and perhaps to inspire some new songwriting ideas. Or, to put it another way, I think it's a great song and just want to see if I can learn something useful from it for my own work.

Looking at the structure of this track inspired me to try and teach myself a bit more about time signatures and the musical notation.     

Since my first post I have a little better understanding of  3/8, 6/8, 9/8 time, etc.  So, I can now answer my initial question and also understand what you mean and agree with what you say - that it doesn't really matter if you consider it as 3/8 bars or pattern of 6/8 and 9/8 bars and that it's just different ways of notating the same thing.  The song structure is interesting to look at, as compared to a more conventional pop song. 

Regarding music theory, I can't help wishing that my school music lessons had inspired me and had been relatable in the same way as your review.  I feel I might have actually understood it a bit better, and  not found it quite so impenetrable.  I guess back then I couldn't quite make the leap from the (slightly stuffy) relevance of 'The Young Persons Guide to the Orchestra' to, say, 'Jack Your Body....' .

Cheers!