I think I understand your explanation. This is how I understand the roles of the OH: to provide stereo image for the drums. To provide ambiance for the drums. To act as a mid point if there is room mic and helps strengthen spatial sense from the direct mics to the room mics.
If we lined up the direct snare mic to the OH we negate all the roles the OH takes, especially the transients. Am I getting warmer?
Yes what you say regarding the role of the OH's is correct. They present an overview of the drum kit.
Moving the transients relative to each other (such as direct snare mic and overheads) is basically manipulating the spacial sense of the drums.
If we have two OH mics, we can manipulate the perceived width of the kit. Imagine a drum kit with a cymbal on the left, and another cymbal on the right. In mixing if we pan the OH mics out wide, the perception is those two cymbals are further away from each other (more stereo spread). If we pan the mics more towards the centre, it makes the kit seem closer together (more mono).
Similarly, in the DAW if we line up the direct snare mic to the overheads, it will give the impression that the OH mics are really close to the snare. If we slide the OH's signal to the right it will give the impression that the OH mics are further away from the snare.
Think of a slap back delay on a vocal. If the delay is short it gives the impression of perhaps a small bright space, and if the delay is longer we get the impression the vocal is in a bigger space. (This is kind of how some types of reverb units work. Of course they use more delays and more sophisticated processing).
Depending on taste - we might sometimes feel a short delay is better than a longer one for example. Same with the drums - we have the option of changing things to our taste if required and one of the ways we can play around with things is by adjusting the phase (timing).
That's the basics of how I think of things.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
Thanks, man. I think I know enough about phase/timing to limp forward from now on. In a way I am glad you brought it up. I get to learn more and give it a lot more respect than I used to bc it's the first sign of a coming wrecking ball. It's impossible to work on a mix when, say, the snares (or anything) are out of phase. I have learned that lesson well. The problem is: how to recognize an out or slightly out of phase when monitor. I look for sounds that is somewhat hollow (on the snare), wavy (on the kick/bass), and strange metallic (on top from the guitars/hats). So far so good.
It's just one more thing you can check if things aren't sounding quite right. Liking mix 3.
Now you've cleaned up the bass, and the bass notes are sounding pretty even now - you could perhaps now afford to add a db at 300Hz on the master bus to add just a touch more weight, and perhaps a db at 4khz to bring the mix forward a little. That's the only thing I noted.
I find that once you've sorted out any resonances in that area you can add a little 300-400Hz back in on the master bus if you feel the mix is needing a touch more weight or body without muddying up the mix.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
Yeah, thanks for mentioning it. I, too, felt it could use a bit more meat. I fiddled with it and found that I had the kick's beater and the bottom snare stuck out quite adequately, so I backed them off and got both the meat and the hi back in the mix, less fighting in that region, I think. Tho I don't mind the mix being a bit dark; the song has some sadness to it.
Wasn't too happy with what I got, a little muddy. Didn't hear it at the time. Went back and did some housekeeping, mostly mopping. Worked on the vocal to help it stay steady and make some words easier to hear. Brought up one of the guitars. Sounds good to me now but tomorrow is another entirely different day. Well, tomorrow is promised to no man, right? Thanks for the listen.
I say this with love but I don’t like this mix. And I suppose i can dive into specifics but I don’t know if that’s helpful at the moment. I can just say with my mixing ears off it’s not…engaging? It’s not bad or offensive or ugly. I’ve heard bad mixes of this one that make me angry. So it isn’t bad. But I do wonder if you’re ensconced in exploring the technical aspects of a mix while eschewing the aesthetics.
Ultimately, everything is there and heard but feels a bit flat. Especially at the chorus. And the riff out of the chorus (Gtr 3/4?) feels limp.
There is some peakiness in the 2-2.5k region of the vocal that annoys me. It seems to be bone of contention but it still irks me.
I like the guitar and vocal effects. The chorus vocals do feel a bit buried.
I’m lacking at 8:17 am EST (God’s time zone) to be clever and smart enough to describe my issues. It’s just missing the emotion, if that makes sense.
In the end, I don’t need to see every color equally in the painting it just need to convey some meaning and make me stop in my tracks.
22-05-2023, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2023, 03:27 PM by Roy.)
I feel like I was overly harsh 2 hours ago prior to my two coffees. I think my point was, however much you're focused on the technical aspects of a mix (as we all can be on this site) keep in mind the aesthetics. Always think about the listener. A 'bad' mix that someone wants to crank on their bluetooth speaker while doing some chore is better than any technical mix.
I've failed this mix as much or more so than anyone but it's a good platform for working on a base rhythm section mix while also providing bits and riffs to speak emotionally to the listener.
I only harp on this because sometimes we are so focused on mixing for mixers as opposed to mixing for people.
Also, I still hate that noise on the OH track at about 13 seconds or so in at a little above 10khz. It's not so bad in this mix though compared to others.
All this talk about phase seems to be nonsensical. If it sounds good and adds something positive to the mix, use it. If it doesn't, fix it (or hide it) until it does. If we are going to address the overhead and room mics (both mono, in this case), I found the room mic was not really much of a 'room' mic or the room was really small. My impression of the room mic was that it was more of another overhead which is how I used it. I panned the 'OH' and 'Room' mics in a way that still kept the kick and snare in the middle but gave width and ambience to the kit. In my template I route my overheads and room mics into discreet stereo busses. In this case I brought the room mic into my overhead buss (which also holds my hat) and then added a bit more room to the buss with a 480XL ambience patch. I kept it tight because of the context of the song which did not seem to call for a big space for the rhythm ensemble. I think some of the wobbliness of your low end may be from reverb on the low end instruments. Anyway, my two cents.
(22-05-2023, 04:07 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: All this talk about phase seems to be nonsensical. If it sounds good and adds something positive to the mix, use it. If it doesn't, fix it (or hide it) until it does. If we are going to address the overhead and room mics (both mono, in this case), I found the room mic was not really much of a 'room' mic or the room was really small. My impression of the room mic was that it was more of another overhead which is how I used it. I panned the 'OH' and 'Room' mics in a way that still kept the kick and snare in the middle but gave width and ambience to the kit. In my template I route my overheads and room mics into discreet stereo busses. In this case I brought the room mic into my overhead buss (which also holds my hat) and then added a bit more room to the buss with a 480XL ambience patch. I kept it tight because of the context of the song which did not seem to call for a big space for the rhythm ensemble. I think some of the wobbliness of your low end may be from reverb on the low end instruments. Anyway, my two cents.
While I agree (as I said in this post: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...#pid124054), we have to keep in mind that not everyone here has a wide variety of experience and education when it comes to audio so sometimes a discussion and reminder of the importance of phase is warranted. And then we can go outside the box (while in the box).
It's important in dealing with multiple mics and sources and leakage and should be dealt with at the recording stage and should be kept in mind and checked when mixing but also in terms of seconds and move on.
In the end it's all probably just phase because that's music and audio but also not something to worry about anymore than one should worry about the phase of different notes when playing a chord.
