Pain Remains Mix

[Philip]

i can understand you about putting fx after all the editing !
for me everything is connecting and patched to the console so its all under my fingertip....took me a while to start mixing with everything ON sooo thanks for the analog domain.....
we are talking about a diff ways and domains to mix .so for me nothing is wrong .
on the other hand Mixing analog is more musical for me, and getin almost everything round and nice mid Freq ....
so,,, to make it short as posible i would say that digital is great for editing and mixing is a way better on the analog domian
i recommend to have some output gear like a comp/ Eq/ stereo Eq so u can put it on your master out without turning any knobs just let the sound go thro it and u'll be amazed how warm and roundy ish shape it will give your project 

i started mixing in the box ,,,, and i did that for few years ,till i got a Tascam stereo tape machine,,,,, few months later i changed everything in my studio ( turn it all analog) LOL....
i thing its better for everyone that mixing ITB to try and get 1 or 2 analog equip.....just to lightin up the dark side of the moon....
maybe few guys will understand what is the real secret to a great sound

[SonicTramp]

I am quite curious to hear it myself. I have nothing analogue now. I'll prob get some eventually in the future just out of curiosity. Many, including you, say that there is a diff and analogue is better. I guess there might be some truth in it. Right now what I am facing is the balance of skill and equipment, and I think I need the former more than the latter. I don't think I know enough to tell the diff even if I had it, yeah, the ears are not at the optimal level yet.

There are, shall we say, "many ways to skin a cat". It doesn't really matter to me how one mixes, as long as the mix sounds good, it's a go. Each of us has our own ways of working, there are no rules, just principles, you do you and I do me make the world a peaceful place, right?

I am interested in discussing about techniques and how-to on equipment to treat tracks/channels. I am even more interested in learning how/where/what to listen, to hunt for, etc. And I am interested most in learning the correct tool to use. That's the real reason I am here. So yeah, man, share all your tricks. I don't mind learning.

You see, we're at the disadvantage learning by ourselves. In school/real studio they have teachers/professors/mixers to show students everything they need to know in order to perform their jobs. They know what they don't know, and they will be taught/pampered every step of the way. Do we have that luxury? I don't even know what I don't or should know now. Why not? Bc I don't have a complete list of what I should know. For example, I didn't know I had to check phase in the beginning. In fact, I didn't even know what it was. It took me a long while researching, reading, trying to understand, etc...All that took roughly a couple years to learn. Such a waste of precious time, not to mention...blood. I can help anybody with that in about an hour now, but it took me close to two years to learn on my own. I wouldn't spend that much time IF I had this: an explanation of What it is. Why it happens. How to recognize it. Where they happen most often. And how to correct it. It'd prob take a bit of time to digest but at least I'd know what I need to know. That's the disadvantage, wasting too much time unnecessarily, imo.

Coming up with the edit list with you is an attempt to fight back the disadvantage. I've hoped that the list would get longer but it didn't turn out that way. That's ok. Maybe that's all there is. Well, at least we have a workable list to go by, right? And when we mix, we know the other guy, wherever he is, is doing the same thing. Tbh, I feel much more confident when you confirmed you did the same in the editing period. Confidence plays a big role in mixing too you know. Your thought?

[Philip]

Yes & agree
(techniques) is a good thing to know ( and bad thing to trust ).
what i mean is .... For Example once you learn techniques or Tricks about how to pull out the BASS Guitar and to make it solid and balanced etc....... included Eq's comp's or what ever.... may work on your project and NOT on many others......
whats important to learn is how to use my Plugins or analog hardware etc...
and to know how to get the MAX of my gear is the secret it self ,,,,

In general : first of first is to know music very wel, it is a MUST 
Reading Partiture
Harmony
acord's
melody.....etc
and for sure to practice your musical hearing ( its a diff from Sound and freq Hearing)
for me music knowladge is a MUST espacily for Mixing engineers.......make things easier and wel done
i can spend months if not years speaking about what i know in the music and mixing
as u mention before its easy to tell someone abot to do things that u learnt in few years......and im telling u that everyone have to get this long time to learn plus practicing it 

after all that u become a sound hunter ,,,, good hearing both worlds ( MUSIC and SOUND) and knowing your FAV equipments very very very wel,,,,,,
last but not least,,,, if u r intersting in any techniques or any other questions i have No problem to share and answer...... with practicing and passion everyone can do it and the only diff is the Taste It Self .......

Just bc there are NO Secret's ..... its all about your Ear's and Taste and overall Knowladge,
Then u got Confident

cheers

[SonicTramp]

There are a couple things you might have misunderstood and/or I didn't make myself clear enough, the danger of the written words. My bad.

Techniques and tricks are good to learn though some of them can only be applied in certain cases. Nothing is ever one-size-fits-all, right? But that's not the reason to neglect the process. I can name a couple ways one can use in any song, parallel compression, m/s processing, sidechaining, etc, for examples. To me. it's just one more way (hopefully a cleverer way at that) to tackle the task at hand, the more I know the better. I may not use all of them but I am sure I will use some of them, and some of them will be better at dealing with the problem than the rest, therefore, the more techniques I know the better. And yes, who doesn't know that every song is different? My goal is to know, if possible, all tricks and techniques. Who says I have to use them all the time, right? All else equal, if I know one more trick than you, I hold the advantage. That's just the way I think. Yours may differ.

Musical knowledge is good to know. I wouldn't say it's a must to be a mixer, but clearly it's an advantage. I know enough about it to make a connection between mixing and music theory, and I do see the close relationship they form. Knowing music theory helps me mix better, true in my case. But lots of people wrote killer songs without knowing how to read music. Lots of people who are killer mixers without knowing music theory. We know that, right? In this business I think the ears are most important everything else comes second.

Why do you think it's (music knowledge) a must? Can you elaborate? I am curious as to the connection you come up with the two. I have my own ideas but I want to hear yours first. It'll be nice to know what I've missed.

Sure, we should know our tools. How can we not? I'd definitely agree that the more one knows about his/her tools the better s/he is at work.

[Philip]

I understand you 100% mate.....
Techniques and tricks are good to learn YES, and music knowladge is good to learn ? Yes! ...actually everything is good to learn , the question which is really helpfull??????
let me ask you , all the sound schools etc... are teaching Techniques and tricks ...bla bla bla...no one teaching how to hunt a trick right ???? be sure, the answer is yes No One will teach u that
second ...i don't agree that ppl who know nothing about music can make a great albums period.
its not easy to explane and type things here about how music knowladge is so important espacially by hearing....but lets say u have a project and u r recording or mixing it,  and next to u settin a composer/arranger and the producer so how can u understand what they r asking for????......u need to read and understand their language
lets say the composer ask u to bright up the Middle note C on the Piano or whatever........ what will u do ???? back to Techniques and tricks ??????or u'll go to the piano channel and open the filter (Eq) while u know middle C is about +/- 256Hz so u'll filter it out in 3 seconds
this is example for how powerfull u become when u know both worlds and know how to combine 
mixing is the sound way to arrange music
againg..... u can learn all the Techniques and tricks ,,but..... tell me how wel u'll use it ?????? wel my friend... this is what i learn the Hard way with the very long Time......wish i knew it 20 years ago ..
someone told me:  when u start mixing while listing through you monitors NOT lising to your monitos u'll nail any mix....sounds like a Phelosophy but it is NOT
so when u say : if I know one more trick than you, I hold the advantage ....for me it is NOT right at all , because i know how to hunt it and make my own Trick ,,,,,, and this is what i mean
and really ,,, the shortest way to say it is  ..... The way to know how to Record and mix like a pro  is so far from learing Techniques and Tricks.   its all about your self  it is like cooking! we are using the same Recipe and woring the same way exactly but... yours taset better than mine !!!!! why ?
hope u got my point about learing sound....
sorry for my poor english
Cheers

[SonicTramp]

Language is not the problem. I understand most of what you said. And whatever I don't understand, I am sure you can explain it to me if I asked.

It seems to me you put up quite a resistant to learning new things. I am surprised. But I understand your reasons behind your position. I don't think they are good reasons, and your examples are not convincing. For example, in your case of the producer asking the mixer to boost/cut middle C and it's faster if, a big if, the mixer knows what frequency a C is. Granted that is the case; there are 88 keys in the piano. Each key is distinctively different in pitch. That means the producer and the mixer both have to know all of them to be effective. What if it's not a C but an F#? After all, all songs are different, and there are other notes beside C in a song, right? In an economical view I just think it's not an ideal way to spend time to learn. The benefit is negligible. But that's just the way I think. You go on your way and do you. I have no problem with it.

One more thing to drive it home for you, and don't take it as a boast. It's just an example we can use. The C note is not +/-256Hz, plus/minus signs in the front are imprecise. There is no such thing because the just-notice-difference (JND) in normal human being is only 2 Hz. It's either a C or not. I can get it to 3 significant places. My calculation shows 261.625Hz (440Hz standard tuning). There is a formula to calculate pitch with a high degree of accuracy on the net. I know the mathematical trick therefore I get the pitch closer in Hertz than you. It took me 2 seconds to learn and probably the same time to help you with it, but you can try to "hunt" the math trick on your own. That's what I meant by "holding an advantage." In this case the advantage is precision. I hope you didn't think I said that to mean I am a better mixer. I don't need to say anything; our mixes can speak for themselves.

Ozzy Osbourne is a great songwriter, a Rock&Roll hall of famer I think. He, till this day, doesn't know how to read music. Listen to Blizzard of Oz and tell me it's not a great album, even on a technical point of view.

I see no point in continue this conversation since it's no longer fruitful for me. We both explained our reasons quite clearly already. And it's harder to get the point across crystal clear when the language barrier is in the way. It's not fair for you since you have to use a foreign language to express your thoughts. However, if you still want to continue, I guess I can still spare some time for it.

[Philip]

first,,,,, Ozzy Osbourn is not EXAMPLE for composing music. SORRY .....and i don't understand why u took everything personaly !!!!!!
who told u to calculate C Note Freq????? sorry u didn't got the Point,
anyway Most of the engineers are thinking same like you ......
and really liked the Conversation we made here ..... but Please don't Waste your time on me
And .....
Don't give me a Fish (Trick) everyday to eat.! teach me how to fish (Tricks)

again im sorry for wasting your expensive Time
cheers