There's always clip gain, a far less destructive processor than a compressor, I think, in you vocal example. And if it still doesn't do it, then my advice would be calling the recording engineers and ask if they have a heart and/or a sadist. Mixers are completely under the recording engineer's mercy, you know.
Sure, I'll keep posting my mix here and fish for critiques. If dudes like it that can only make me happy and more confident. I like either one of them but preferred to have both, always the greedy one, me.
Still a static mix with just separation and rebalance. I like the quality of the sounds so there's no need for me to enhance it. I'd like to have the snare a bit weightier but...If I still like it tomorrow then I'll probably go for automation, an entirely different animal I have to tackle. Hope I didn't have anything stick out too much and that you'll tell me if it does. Thanks.
Yesterday I was looking around to learn more about phase, thanks for bringing it up, man. Prior to your mentioning it, I was about to prepare a little green and perhaps a shot of some cheap alcohol lying around my room trying to enjoy myself over my little victory over the mix, but, sigh.... All that went up in flame as soon as you mention phase. It's still somewhat a mystery to me so perhaps it's time to dig a little more, not to mention it's been taunting me in my dreams all this time.
The way I understand it is, first, it is time based and cut or boost creates the same amount of phase. Some say it's also frequency based but I disagree and went with the former. (Those who say it is frequency dependent didn't come up with a sound argument, so I dismissed). One can get away, somewhat, with a linear phase EQ, but one will have to face pre-ringing (I never got to hear it so I don't actually know what it is). Second, all EQ, including linear phase EQs, are capable of creating either phase (for nonlinear) or artifacts (for linear). No free lunch here. It's one or the other. If you want to find out more about it, google it. The gist of it is: the jury's still out on this. Lots of fights but no solid conclusion. I can understand why bc it involves more than just sounds; it involves other electronic stuffs like transistors, capacitors, latency, ect, stuff I know virtually nothing about. However, they all converge to agreeing that it doesn't matter, bc we have eqs since the dawn of time, and phase is a fact of life. Live with it, they say.
But that's not to say we let it run wild like an animal in the Serengeti, right? Luckily, some dude came up with a clever idea to go around it. Thought I share it here just in case someone find it useful.
If the intention is to minimize phase (not artifact such as pre-ringing) then one should NOT eq drums individually. A move in EQ, whether cut or boost, will create latency leading to phase, if EQing drums individually, and the more EQ moves the more chance for phase to happen at different time and place.
The best way is to EQ them as a whole so that the move will affect all at the same place and same time and same amount. Sounded quite convincing to me, so I put it to the test and see. Anything to make the mix better, right?
Leaving all instruments alone, I turned off all my individual drum's EQs (on snare, kick, hats, etc) leaving only one EQ on the drum bus. I EQed it the way I liked it, only a couple small moves, mostly cuts. Rebalanced and noticed a difference in drums sounds, cleaner, more defined, and the whole mix punchier, or at least it's my perception. I am not sure it's the result of less phase in my mix bc I treated the drums as a whole or not, but I liked the results regardless. For now, I am camping under his banner tho I still have many questions. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
To be honest I really only mentioned phase to appease any pedants that might be reading this. IMHO it's generally not really something that is worth worrying about.
When it comes to eq the phase change does happen at the frequency you are cutting or boosting. I think I can attempt to explain my understanding of phase if you are interested? I think I can explain it in a way that will give you a better understanding and allow you to make your own mind up about it. I actually created some screenshots relating to phase and eq cuts and boosts thing this afternoon, but didn't know whether it would be worth me posting them.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
I am always ready to jump ship at anytime. It's not the ship I care; keeping me afloat and dry is the idea.
Post whatever you think would help. If not me, there are always others who can use your help. No one knows everything. You are not doing it in vain. You are helping me. Without you I know my mix would never improve so fast. I am interested in learning more about phase. Thanks.
02-05-2023, 12:04 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2023, 12:06 AM by mikej.)
I don't know everything either. It's important for everyone to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. A lot of this stuff can be tested in the daw.
I should clarify that I generally don't worry about phase when it comes to eq. I do worry about phase when it comes to checking that snare top and bottom mics are in phase and in alignment, checking individual drum mics with the overheads, and also mixing guitar cab mics with DI signals, etc.
Anyway, first off was the question about eq cuts and boosts. I've attached 3 screenshots.
There's a screenshot of a parametric cut. I've attempted to match the resulting eq curve as best I can, with two shelving eq boosts (and a 6db volume cut). The red line shows the resultant phase shift either side of the center frequency. (If you were to do a boost, the phase shift would be opposite). The other screenshot is the resulting eq curves in an analyser (I used a dirac impulse sample to capture the curves). One curve is in red, the other green. You can see where the curves don't quite match up but I think I got it as close as I can with how the high and low shelf eq curves work on that eq. The phase change is not exactly the same but is quite close.
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
02-05-2023, 01:09 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2023, 01:13 AM by mikej.)
Heh, I don't think it's actually that easy to explain phase by writing it out in a forum post after all, but I'll still give it a go.
Speaker cones move in and out and rest at what we could call a center position.
If I have a 1khz sine wave at -6db on one track, the speaker will move in and out at a frequecy of 1Khz. If I duplicate it to another track I will get a 0db 1Khz sine wave, as adding two identical signals of equal volume will give a 6db increase in volume (I hope I've got that right). The speaker will move in and out, but a bit further (louder). If I invert the polarity of one track, ie effectively put the signal 180 degrees out of phase, the two signals will effectively cancel each other out, and we'll get silence. One track is moving the speaker in, and the other track is pushing the speaker out by the same amount. Sliding one of the tracks left and right will increase or decrease the volume. This is basically why we ensure snare top and bottom mic signals are lined up and in phase, so the signals don't cancel each other out, in simple terms.
Eq works by effectively delaying the signal at a specific frequency and mixing it back in with the original signal (at a specific volume). This creates the phase shift. This signal combined in phase could be an eq 'boost' and out of phase could be an eq 'cut'.
So I think you will only hear 'problems' with the resulting phase shift if there is another similar correlated signal present, where the frequencies will be added, or taken away, as in the example above. So you might possibly hear phase shift (freqs being added or taken away) when, for example you eq a snare drum top mic. (frequencies could be added or subracted when the eq'd top mic signal combines with the bottom mic signal).
[Ok, so there is a filter type called an 'all pass' filter. This effectively creates a 180 degree phase shift at a particular frequency. This is how a phaser effect works - this filter is swept up and down the frequency range, and the filtered signal is combined with the original. This creates the 'phasing' sound.]
So, my thinking is that although phase with regards to eq has an effect with regards to corellated signals, eg snare top and bottom mic, overheads kick in/out mics, you will be making eq decisions based on what you actually hear. This is why I don't generally worry about phase as such when it comes to eq.
Minimium phase eq's minimize phase shift, and linear phase eqs I think have no phase shift at all, so that is why you might choose to use these on multi-mic'd signals. I think they work by somehow delaying the 'delayed' and original signal somehow hence the added latency. This is about where my knowledge runs out and I'd have to look it up .
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
Just finshed comparing your last two mixes. Yeah I can confirm the drums in the 'phasetest' mix sound brighter . Did you do a lot of low passing on the mix where you eq'd the individual channels, or no?
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
(02-05-2023, 01:59 AM)mikej Wrote: Just finshed comparing your last two mixes. Yeah I can confirm the drums in the 'phasetest' mix sound brighter . Did you do a lot of low passing on the mix where you eq'd the individual channels, or no?
Cheers!
*No, not a lot. I do HP guitars to 90Hz. I find that this usually is the place for all guitars including acoustic. Sometimes I go to 120 but rarely. Bass HP to 35-41Hz. The whole drum set gets HP 60Hz. Mostly I aim for the lowest fundamental and HP to there. Vocal ~ 80Hz male and 95-100Hz female. Pretty standard, I'd say.
Also no, I did not work on anything else, just in case you ask. Just the drums. And it made such a difference on the mix.
Thanks for confirming my last mix. Yeah, man. All that was there from previous mix probably all the phase I got. Combined them together and treat them as a whole seems working great. That was the reason why I said I was camping under his banner for now. It works but only on this song. I'll try it on another just to make sure. I am always weary when I hear a sample of one. It's just not enough to go on, but I don't mind limping thru it until I am sure. Thanks man.
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