Dark Ride: 'Hammer Down'

[mikej]

Snares. To be honest I'd strongly suggest asking someone else .

For me:

Chris Lord-Alge, Tom Lord-Alge, David Bendeth, Dan Korneff, Andy Sneap. Green Day (American Idiot), One OK Rock, Paramore (Riot!), Judas Priest (Live at the Seminole Hard Rock Arena)

Mike Senior has some full Reaper mix sessions you can download + it has screenshots of all the plugins you don't own.... I think one of the Magician's Nephew tracks has just eq on the drum kit and only a compressor on the drum bus, from memory. That was a bit of a revelation. Learned a lot from that session.

Mixing wise -

Some/all/none of:

Checking phase and alignment
Snare top, not much snare bottom
200Hz, 8KHz boost into compressor (also eq after the compressor if you need a touch more boost)
Slow attack, fast release (1176 style)
..Or no channel compression
Good balance with rooms & overheads
eq the rooms
saturation/distortion
classy sounding reverb
trashy sounding reverb
parallel compression
samples
cut out any bad hits and paste in better ones
80's gated reverb (trigger the gate after the reverb from the snare)
Drum Bus Compressor
No Drum Bus Compressor


There's a lot of info in this thread. Don't beat yourself up too much. Give it a little time to try things out (like at least year or two in my case) and find out what works for you and what doesn't.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

I recently found that the rhythm guitars tracks were damaged beyond repair in my mix. I still don't know what cause the damage but want to blame the conversion process. For some reasons some tracks, even though the same bit rate and sampling size, would not import w/o conversion. After hitting "yes" nothing else was demanded to proceed so I assumed it worked. As a result the guitar tracks sounded super grainny and scratched the ears with sharp claws. I LP them all the way to 3kHz and still screaming at me. I should have checked but didn't. Yesterday I was doing some investigation to find out why they behave that way. Downloaded the file again and instead of importing I used workspace and drag-and-drop all the instruments directly to my session. Checked everything and found out the guitar tracks were much sweeter and much friendlier. Back to the grind, happily actually.

Couple things I noticed after:

Bringing up the snare attack was easier. I can hear the ghost notes now. I have been told to have it too loud. I wonder if it's still loud and if it is, how much down? (just be mindful that an increase/decrease of 3dBs would be perceived double or half the volume) I am trying to gauge the level.

The guitar chugging is sharper and less interfering with the kick beater/bass/snare. I can hear chords changes, string pick slide, etc, better.

My mix tend to be a bit bright. I guess my ears like it that way. I wonder how bright it is to you.

The mix has some automations, but I am unsure of the results because either I don't hear it or already heard it coming. I do use a lot of side chaining and they are for downward automation purposes rather than upward, where a chance of invoking some type of emotion from the listener are more likely. But that is not my main concern. I worry more about separations, definitions, and balances of the mix way more. So if you have time and don't mind helping, I'd love to hear what you think. Thanks for time.

[Blitzzz]

Regarding your question about the optimal snare: Thanks to EAs Rock Band game, you can hear the original stems of many classic metal songs and analyze how the guitar/bass/drums sound on their own. This helped me a lot back in the day because I could compare my stuff with the "real stuff". The original stems for My Curse are still on Youtube for bass, guitar and drums. I love that song and the entire As daylight dies album, so those stems inspired and guided me. I never managed to get the same snare sound, though, even with the original kick, snare and tom samples from the man himself, Andy Sneap =)

My Curse drum track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY5KHMorJCw
My Curse bass track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhejPhdnwj8
My Curse guitar track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGNW0hNuzzk

[mikej]

Hi!

Listening to your latest mix I feel you are still over processing and each element and altering the character of the recorded sounds too much. Your snare sounds completely different in tone and character. It sounds to me that you are working on each sound individually and not thinking in terms of how they fit and work together. The tones as recorded are actually very good in this session. The snare in particular doesn't really need a whole lot of processing, it's more about the mix balance.

I do think it would be worthwhile to go back to basics. Try posting a mix with no processing, no effects, no automation, just concentrate on balance and panning and see what you come up with.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Thanks, Mikej, for the comment, man. Yeah trying too hard to get the snare pop and destroyed everything else in the process. Just trying to learn how to work the processors. I got the snare closer to where I want it this time.

[mikej]

Hi!

Apologies for not checking this thread for a while.

Ok, bass is a bit too loud in the mix. It sounds good though, just a bit loud! It's competing too much with the guitars, especially during the intro and pre-chorus/chorus sections. Mix feels a little unbalanced stereo wise during the intro. Vocal starts to get a bit lost at times (eg 1:24, 3:58 ish). Guitar riff at 1:50 is a bit buried. It's barely audible at 3:23 and 3:33. It sounds like the master limiter might be getting hit a little hard towards the end of the mix? it might be worth backing it off just a touch, though probably not by much.

Yeah the snare sounds much better! In fact all the parts are sounding much better to me in this latest mix. It feels like all the parts are working well together now. It's sounding like a mix, as opposed to a collection of separately eq'd parts playing at once.

For me it's really just the balance that needs a little attention now. I think all the issues I mentioned above are all balance issues really, which can be fixed with a few fader moves and a little automation. It's getting there . Definitely keep at it!

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Thanks for leaving a comment, mikej. I appreciate it. No worries, we each have our own little lovely demons in life to deal with. At least you made it. That's all that matters. Thanks.

Anyway, I love the song but could never mix it properly. For example, right at the beginning ~(0:07) the guitar entrance just didn't sound like I wanted it to be, always weak and timid. The first verse, (0:37 on), the same, I mean I could hear the chugging but still weak and unimpressive, somehow unable to articulate. (I think it's the best part of the song).  I want to hear all the chords, even the long sustained power chords, clearly and completely. I could get it to where I could hear it, but always partially never completely. I grew up with Metallica, Slayer, etc, so I have a vague idea what a guitar should sound like in a metal song. What I had, up to now, is not it. Same with the snare. I can hear it but it's not aggressive enough to drive the song forward and in denser parts obscured to the point of disappearing. In short, there's always something wrong or incomplete in everything. I mixed it with a frown rather than a smile. That bugged me to no end. I spent a bit of time thinking, trying to figure out what's wrong. I came to a conclusion that I want to share with you hoping you'll (or anybody) find it useful. A form of thinking out loud, if you will.

The reason my mixes never gave me what I wanted was that I simply could not control the compressor. I could hear the attack, only recently, but not the release. It's actually the easier of the two. Being able to hear the attack helps me control the front ends of all instruments so that each has its own "pulse" and they don't get in each other's ways. The release is much harder to hear because of a few reasons. First, it has no attack (duh!) for the ears to latch on. Second, it lasts only a few, if that, milliseconds. But, to me, intuitively, it'll provide the "swing" to complete the "pulse" of each of the instruments. It'll give me the snap of the snare, the chugging of the guitars, etc. Most of all, I later found out, the release helps a great deal on separation, a vital part of a good mix. Only if I can hear it. And only if I can control it. I still think that s/he who can control the compressor rules the magic kingdom.

So I spent a month, close enough, to learn to listen to the release with thousands of tries using this song. I don't know if it's out of sheer trying or luck but I think I can hear it now. I mixed this song using my new found knowledge and I think I like it. If you have some time, I'll really appreciate your comment on it. I need to make sure it's not an illusion of knowledge and that it's not a confirmation bias on my part. Second pair of ears is always better than one.  And of course any tips to get me to the next level would greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[mikej]

Hi!

It's really not all about the compressor! For me it's all about trying to get a good mix balance. The compressor and other processors are tools that may or may not be needed for a given track to help it sit better in the mix. Same deal with eq, reverb, etc. You only need to add additonal processing as and when it is required to help a track sit in the mix. That's the plan I start out with anyway..... .

A few posts back I was strongly hinting that I feel it would help you if you were to post a static mix without using any plugins at all. Just adjust volume and panning. See how close you can get it to my rough mix perhaps? I think doing this would help you with figuring out how to get a really good starting mix balance and also should help you with gain staging too. You mught have to clip gain down all the tracks before you start to give yourself some headroom. The rough mix doesn't have to be loud, just balanced as best you can. You should, for example, be able to get a pretty good snare sound by balancing the direct snare mic with the overheads and rooms.

If you post up your rough mix, with no plugins on, it will be much easier to discuss it and give you help and advice with the mix balance without the distraction of plugins. We can then move on to mix processing and automation from there. We can start with your rough mix, and then we can talk about possible next steps regarding ways to go on how to build it up from there, if you are up for that? It's ok if you don't quite get it straight away, it might take a few goes at it.

The raw tracks in this particular session are in really good shape as is... and you can get quite a punchy mix with no processing at all. Take your time and post up a rough mix balance when you feel you've got something. One tip I would suggest is to make sure you take plenty of breaks - Once you think you've got the rough mix, I would suggest double checking it the next day to make sure it still sounds good before posting.

I think there are probably all the tips you need in this thread as regards getting to the next level... It's just a case of practice, and to my mind starting with the initial mix balance.

Anyway, just my thoughts, maybe others will have some suggestions here too.

Things that are sticking out to me in the 2-23 mix:

Intro sounds good. Still too much bass for my taste when it comes in. Not sure why the rhythm guitar is only on one side... there is a main rhythm guitar and a double - convention is to pan them hard left and right (or perhaps to 80% left and right for those that prefer that). Snare sounds quite dry and loud and sticks out too much to my ear I think... Effects a touch too wet for me on the guitar riff around the 20 second mark. Guitar is a bit loud on the left (& then the right) during the verse - it's covering up the vocal. The mix balance during the chorus is better.

Things are sounding quite distorted to me around 1:48. Not sure if you distorted the toms, or if they are too loud and distoring against the limiter? The vocals seem to drop in level a bit around the 2 minute mark. Things start to distort and break up again around the 3:30 mark.

I feel I might be being a bit harsh, but it's how I'm hearing it right now. Nohting that can't be fixed.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

I have 9 mono and 2 stereo guitar tracks. Whenever you hear a guitar on one side it is bc it is played that way. One would play first and then the other joins in. I have them hard panned. They are that way up to 0:37, the rest of the songs there are 2 guitars playing. Unless there are more guitar tracks that I don't know about, the way I set it up is quite conventional. Unless you think it's a good idea to center it and then pan it back out.

I don't mean that the compressor is the only way out. Any and all of the processors are equally important. We all should know that much. In my case, I know the compressor the least so it's a natural thing to seek out and learn more. Even though I just learn how to hear it but already it helps make it easier, not easy, to work other processors into the mix. Only a week in, I still have time and patience to aim better.

I don't think posting the mix with only volume balance is helpful to neither one of us because of the many variations involved in the process. Let's just say that I do. I do it in a diff room, listening to, possibly, an entirely diff set of speakers, sitting in diff distance, and on top of that my personal and subjective perception of sounds in general. Any of those, if not up to standard, will skew your/my sense of balance. For example, the bass sounds perfect to me where I am at, yet to you it's a little loud. But what if someone else says it's not loud enough or just perfect the way it is? How do I decide who to listen to knowing all those variations that could affect the outcome? I can still try but 99% sure you will find something off and not like it. Could it be me? possibly, but entirely, maybe not. I am curious as to what you think about it. Point out where I am wrong at and we can go from there.

Don't worry about being nice when critique, almost impossible to do so. I have high tolerance for criticism. I know my place. And I appreciate you even write anything about my mix. I am here to learn and ask questions to help hone my skills. That's my goal. Thanks, man, for spending the time.

[mikej]

Hi!

I'll have to take a look to re-familarise myself with what tracks are included in the session tomorrow, I guess it's been a while since I've looked at it.

Posting a mix with only volume and panning is helpful, as you won't be using eq or any plugins that will affect the sound of each track, so we can just concentrate on getting a good balance with the raw tracks as is.

The points you gave as reasons not to do this, are actually the reasons to do it. You need to ensure your mixes translate to other peoples systems. That's half the battle.

Cheers!