(06-01-2023, 05:00 AM)SonicTramp Wrote: No words from the songwriter himself saying anything so I just went on gut feelings.
Hi,
Thought it was worth stepping in to point out that someone posted quite a lot of useful information here regarding mixing this particular track, if you (or anyone else) had missed it....
Cheers!
Thanks for the info, man. Should have done more legworks but lesson learned. Now I have clear instructions to follow. Will I be able to follow? We'll see. I'll try my best; that's for sure. Thanks for the time, man.
Well, I came back to the song and did a complete redo last night without instructions since I didn't find out until now. I beefed up the guitars as suggested but the rest was still building on gut feelings. I'll leave it here and will work on the song follow the instructions outlined to see which version is better for my own educational purposes. I'd love to hear anybody's opinions on it. I am specifically looking for any criticism. Thanks.
As you know I am far from a mixing expert so I'm not going to offer up any criticism as such. Listening through your mixes so far, I do have some thoughts based on my own struggles with mixing that I thought might be worth passing on, in case they are of any use to you.
Not sure I can put things in a useful order and this post might turn out to be quite long and rambling, but I'll try to give it a shot. I hope some of my thoughts might have some merit, but your mileage may vary, as they say.
I hope you don't mind the long post, but I feel it might be a bit more use here than posting the usual 'nice mix / too much bass' kind of a thing .
First off, I think it is well worth checking out one of the mixes Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes. It's a good mix and I think it really does cover off everything quite well and is a good benchmark to aim for: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...?tid=18589. (I think mix 3 mastered is the one).
Quick aside - I know some people want to put their own creative spin on mixes so to speak - and I do get that. Personally if I like the library mix, I figure I might as well try for that for a start (learning), as I figure I likely won't be able to come close to matching it, let alone beat it (which is the ultimate goal of course). Over time you might reference the library mix or other commercial mixes and with a bit of luck you might find on the odd occasion you might find that maybe are not so far off as you think. I also think you'll kind of add your own taste to things anyway.
I find mix referencing is really quite brutal to the old ego, but I feel that's the real competition. I know I go on about mix referencing, but for me how else do you know if you are in the ball park, or if you've even got to the car park?
Before I forget, I think you made a few comments regarding compression earlier. I recall this video from Gregory Scott is pretty good and perhaps might be of some help? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XGXz6SHco. (Yeah I know everyone is selling something on Youtube, all the same there's some really good info there I think, compared to a lot of videos out there).
Another video I thought quite good is the Dave Pensado interview with Chris Lord Alge. I recall there's some good compression tips at the end. There's also lots of seemingly small things that Chris mentions in passing during the course of the interview that I found really helpful too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqZHOrj1VjQ
My go to channel compressor is an 1176 style, and I found it useful to set up a few of my own presets as starting points, like slow attack/fast release for drums, fast attack/fast release or whatever for vocals etc. Setting up a few starting presets like this might help with whatever your favorite compressors are.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel I'm hearing that you've got a definite end goal in mind, but maybe are not quite managing to hit the mark as you want as yet. I'm also contractually obliged at this point to mention here that it's well worth picking up Mike Senior's book if you haven't got a copy already.
Ok, I think the main thing I am hearing in your mixes is that you are moving in the right direction, but I feel you might be kind of over processing and pushing everything a bit too much from the start, so my suggestion would be to try not to force the end result too early, and to slowly work towards it, step by step.
It might help to start by giving yourself plenty of mix headroom. Turn up the volume on your audio interface, and trim the channels down a bit. You can always gain up and limit the master bus at the end, no problem.
Start with getting a basic volume balance and sorting out the panning. I find I tend to start with the drums and vocals, then I bring up the guitars, etc around them. Panning can help a lot with freq separation too - panning the guitars wide also leaves space for the vocals up the middle for example. Next move on to eq and compression as needed, and then on to mix bus compression and automation. Maybe go for the final limiting and loudness at the end as a separate finalizing stage.
As part of my template I've set up a vca fader for all drums, all lead vocals, all backing vocals, all guitars, etc so I can easily change the relative volume of each group at any time and see what seems to work best. I usually find I have the drums too quiet by the time I get to the end of processing a mix, so with the vca faders I can easily grab everything but the drums and bring everything else down a few db... as opposed to finding I've run out of headroom to push the drums up. You could just use the bus faders, but I find it handy to set up a row of vca's, kind of like I imagine the group faders are on an SSL. Also if you find you need a bit more headroom at any time, you can just bring down all the vca faders a touch.
I think it's worth saying now that it's no bad thing to be experimenting and trying different things as you are. Even if you are not quite get the results you want right now, I found the things you find out by experimenting do actually turn out to be quite useful for those times when you do need to pull something out the bag to give something a bit of an extra push to cut through.
(Might not be a need to gate all the things though!),
Learning what not do to is equally as important as learning what works, although not as immediately rewarding of course. I know I spend far too much time making notes on what not to do to a mix ever again....
If you listen to the mix I pointed out at the start - for me I feel a lot of the power of the mix is created by the relative balance of the instruments (hence my vca fader set up), as opposed to heavily limiting and eq'ing each part right off the bat. There's a lot of automation going on in that mix too, which gives contrast and focus to different elements in each section at different times as the mix progresses.
If you do things in stages, you might find you'll kind of figure out where you need to add limiting here and there to get the odd thing to sit where you want in the mix.
Balance wise, I find it helps to plan out which parts you want to be at the front of the mix and be highlighted and which parts can sit more in the background. Maybe try starting out with the key elements for each section up front, and fitting everything else around them.
Same as volume balance, frequency balance is kind of a similar sort of thing. Check out the library mix, etc and figure out which are the important frequencies of each part that need to cut though, and what is less important, and kind of plan out where you feel things should sit.
Is it important that the low end of the kick cuts through the mix, or is it more like 3k that is actually cutting through? Is the body of the guitars sitting above or below the vocal. Does the bass need to stick out at 80Hz or is it more kind of filling out and blending in with the bottom end of the guitars (this might help with setting the high pass on the guitar, etc). Do you need to push a little of the 4k of the vocal a bit to get it to cut through, etc....
I find whilst doing the mix balance you can sometimes get a pretty good idea of which frequencies are clashing and need to be sorted out.
Automation wise I tend to think section by section. Do the guitars need to be more in the background compared to the vocal during the verses, for example. Are there some fills, or little parts that I can bring out at various points to add more interest. Do I need to adjust the balance a bit when more parts come in to keep certain things up front?
A useful tip I think is to also think about building transitions between sections, like automating the snare to hit a bit louder going from verse to chorus, or a cymbal crash or highlighting a bass riff or whatever. As Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes things like making the verses a 1/2 db quieter than the chorus, and thinking of ways to make the chorus a bit wider than the verses, etc is they way to go. It's really is worth putting in that kind effort.
My last tip for now is to perhaps go and check out some Killswitch Engage tracks too.
Anyway, well done if you've bothered to read this far. As I said at the start I as you know am far from an expert. These are just a few things that I found helpful along the way, and maybe there might be one or two things there that you might find of some use too.
Good luck!
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
As you know I am far from a mixing expert so I'm not going to offer up any criticism as such. Listening through your mixes so far, I do have some thoughts based on my own struggles with mixing that I thought might be worth passing on, in case they are of any use to you.
Not sure I can put things in a useful order and this post might turn out to be quite long and rambling, but I'll try to give it a shot. I hope some of my thoughts might have some merit, but your mileage may vary, as they say.
I hope you don't mind the long post, but I feel it might be a bit more use here than posting the usual 'nice mix / too much bass' kind of a thing .
First off, I think it is well worth checking out one of the mixes Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes. It's a good mix and I think it really does cover off everything quite well and is a good benchmark to aim for: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...?tid=18589. (I think mix 3 mastered is the one).
Quick aside - I know some people want to put their own creative spin on mixes so to speak - and I do get that. Personally if I like the library mix, I figure I might as well try for that for a start (learning), as I figure I likely won't be able to come close to matching it, let alone beat it (which is the ultimate goal of course). Over time you might reference the library mix or other commercial mixes and with a bit of luck you might find on the odd occasion you might find that maybe are not so far off as you think. I also think you'll kind of add your own taste to things anyway.
I find mix referencing is really quite brutal to the old ego, but I feel that's the real competition. I know I go on about mix referencing, but for me how else do you know if you are in the ball park, or if you've even got to the car park?
Before I forget, I think you made a few comments regarding compression earlier. I recall this video from Gregory Scott is pretty good and perhaps might be of some help? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XGXz6SHco. (Yeah I know everyone is selling something on Youtube, all the same there's some really good info there I think, compared to a lot of videos out there).
Another video I thought quite good is the Dave Pensado interview with Chris Lord Alge. I recall there's some good compression tips at the end. There's also lots of seemingly small things that Chris mentions in passing during the course of the interview that I found really helpful too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqZHOrj1VjQ
My go to channel compressor is an 1176 style, and I found it useful to set up a few of my own presets as starting points, like slow attack/fast release for drums, fast attack/fast release or whatever for vocals etc. Setting up a few starting presets like this might help with whatever your favorite compressors are.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel I'm hearing that you've got a definite end goal in mind, but maybe are not quite managing to hit the mark as you want as yet. I'm also contractually obliged at this point to mention here that it's well worth picking up Mike Senior's book if you haven't got a copy already.
Ok, I think the main thing I am hearing in your mixes is that you are moving in the right direction, but I feel you might be kind of over processing and pushing everything a bit too much from the start, so my suggestion would be to try not to force the end result too early, and to slowly work towards it, step by step.
It might help to start by giving yourself plenty of mix headroom. Turn up the volume on your audio interface, and trim the channels down a bit. You can always gain up and limit the master bus at the end, no problem.
Start with getting a basic volume balance and sorting out the panning. I find I tend to start with the drums and vocals, then I bring up the guitars, etc around them. Panning can help a lot with freq separation too - panning the guitars wide also leaves space for the vocals up the middle for example. Next move on to eq and compression as needed, and then on to mix bus compression and automation. Maybe go for the final limiting and loudness at the end as a separate finalizing stage.
As part of my template I've set up a vca fader for all drums, all lead vocals, all backing vocals, all guitars, etc so I can easily change the relative volume of each group at any time and see what seems to work best. I usually find I have the drums too quiet by the time I get to the end of processing a mix, so with the vca faders I can easily grab everything but the drums and bring everything else down a few db... as opposed to finding I've run out of headroom to push the drums up. You could just use the bus faders, but I find it handy to set up a row of vca's, kind of like I imagine the group faders are on an SSL. Also if you find you need a bit more headroom at any time, you can just bring down all the vca faders a touch.
I think it's worth saying now that it's no bad thing to be experimenting and trying different things as you are. Even if you are not quite get the results you want right now, I found the things you find out by experimenting do actually turn out to be quite useful for those times when you do need to pull something out the bag to give something a bit of an extra push to cut through.
(Might not be a need to gate all the things though!),
Learning what not do to is equally as important as learning what works, although not as immediately rewarding of course. I know I spend far too much time making notes on what not to do to a mix ever again....
If you listen to the mix I pointed out at the start - for me I feel a lot of the power of the mix is created by the relative balance of the instruments (hence my vca fader set up), as opposed to heavily limiting and eq'ing each part right off the bat. There's a lot of automation going on in that mix too, which gives contrast and focus to different elements in each section at different times as the mix progresses.
If you do things in stages, you might find you'll kind of figure out where you need to add limiting here and there to get the odd thing to sit where you want in the mix.
Balance wise, I find it helps to plan out which parts you want to be at the front of the mix and be highlighted and which parts can sit more in the background. Maybe try starting out with the key elements for each section up front, and fitting everything else around them.
Same as volume balance, frequency balance is kind of a similar sort of thing. Check out the library mix, etc and figure out which are the important frequencies of each part that need to cut though, and what is less important, and kind of plan out where you feel things should sit.
Is it important that the low end of the kick cuts through the mix, or is it more like 3k that is actually cutting through? Is the body of the guitars sitting above or below the vocal. Does the bass need to stick out at 80Hz or is it more kind of filling out and blending in with the bottom end of the guitars (this might help with setting the high pass on the guitar, etc). Do you need to push a little of the 4k of the vocal a bit to get it to cut through, etc....
I find whilst doing the mix balance you can sometimes get a pretty good idea of which frequencies are clashing and need to be sorted out.
Automation wise I tend to think section by section. Do the guitars need to be more in the background compared to the vocal during the verses, for example. Are there some fills, or little parts that I can bring out at various points to add more interest. Do I need to adjust the balance a bit when more parts come in to keep certain things up front?
A useful tip I think is to also think about building transitions between sections, like automating the snare to hit a bit louder going from verse to chorus, or a cymbal crash or highlighting a bass riff or whatever. As Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes things like making the verses a 1/2 db quieter than the chorus, and thinking of ways to make the chorus a bit wider than the verses, etc is they way to go. It's really is worth putting in that kind effort.
My last tip for now is to perhaps go and check out some Killswitch Engage tracks too.
Anyway, well done if you've bothered to read this far. As I said at the start I as you know am far from an expert. These are just a few things that I found helpful along the way, and maybe there might be one or two things there that you might find of some use too.
Good luck!
Cheers!
Thanks for the rather detailed map you laid out for me. It must take quite a few seconds to compose and I do feel grateful for that. I also feel the "bigness" in you. Bigger than I am that's for sure. Awesome!
I guess the ball is in my court now, so I am gonna try to out length your post and see what happens.
Right off the bat, references do nothing for me, did a lot to me but not for me. Not only you, thousands have said that. Only one (that I know of) said no (an author about mixing music. A name attached is much better but I forgot), 2 if you add me to it. I know I am on the minority. But, really, what do you listen to? Here are my reasons against (for mixing purposes) it, and yeah, save me, man, if you think I am heading in the wrong direction. 1. It's already mastered. That should end right there but I have more. 2. These are professionally done, by (name your god) so what are we looking for? Everything is just perfect to me. I don't hear anything that I shouldn't hear. 3. Everything is different, even in the same song, with diff mixers. Balances? They are everywhere but still sound good. 4. I don't like everything CLA/ Wallace/Pensado do. What does it even mean then? Those are the reasons why I don't care for references. No offense to you.
I do, however, use references but for different reasons, mostly to calibrate the rattling of my bottom end when compared. In general, frequencies balance. But I only do that when I want my mix to be loud.
I don't mind changing my mind tho if someone comes up with a convincing and practical reason(s) for it. After all my only purpose here is to learn.
I am specifically looking for tips and tricks bc I don't feel I know enough. My hearing is getting much better but that's about it. Hearing it and controlling it are two entirely different things, right? I hear all my processors and their reactions, some very clearly, some not so, but I am not worried about it bc I have enough to build momentum on. Learning is a logarithmic curve. All I need is practice and time. I have both. Now that I can hear them, it's the making the decisions that confuses me. Sometimes lengthen the release makes the same pleasant sound as shorten it, so which one? Not to mention lengthen it make another instrument sound better while shorten it bring out the best in a diff one. What to do? When to stop? Which one?...
You see, I face a much bigger problem now than before. When I first started it, it was the not hearing it that confused me. I stumbled in the dark in unfamiliar terrain with minimum guidance, only the internet+books for roughly 6 years. I just barely begin recently, the hearing part. I am somewhat still outside peeking in the land I fear most, the land of adjectives. This is where the pro talks a bout warmth, punch, sizzles, etc, I think. And this is only the first inch of a thousand mile long journey. I must love mixing. I also love to learn new things equally, if not more.
Btw, I checked out all the links you sent. I knew some of them. Thanks. I cannot listen to the mixes you recommend. Links said I have no authorization or something to that effect. Perhaps bc of the old Mountain Lion iOS. Bummer, but will try again later.
Well, the intention was to out length your post but I guess a man can only endure for so long, and not all dreams come true, right? One must learn how to live with disappointment somehow. Someone told me that. I have my share of black-eyed you know. Didn't like that one bit tho, tbh.
I hope you won't take offense to anything I wrote bc it's not my intention. More like, if you allowed, 2 peers, perhaps with me as a junior, on the children table, discussing a common topic. There will be disagreement (I am very inquisitive by nature) but I hope it's for the sake of learning. Thanks, man. I appreciate what you did. I'll regroup and chew on what you said for a bit and see what remains.
08-01-2023, 04:55 PM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2023, 12:16 AM by mikej.
Edit Reason: Oops! I typed unmixed instead of unmastered. Sorry!
)
Yeah, I think I see your point of view. To add to the discussion here are my thoughts for what they are worth:
(08-01-2023, 08:14 AM)SonicTramp Wrote: But, really, what do you listen to? Here are my reasons against (for mixing purposes) it, and yeah, save me, man, if you think I am heading in the wrong direction.
1. It's already mastered.
Fair enough. Mike Senior has kindly taken the time to upload plenty of unmixedUNMASTERED mixes to the library site to use for reference as well as mastering practice though.
There are also a lot of mastering type videos available on youtube too, which enable you to see what mastering engineers do to a mix. You can do the same to your mixes too, and you'll get a sense of what can be done to enhance a mix, and be able to sort of 'listen through' the mastering layer to hear the mix moves underneath.
I'm not a big fan of analogies, but:
I no longer drink coffee. When I did, I didn't take sugar. I sometimes drank black coffee, sometimes with milk. After many years of drinking many different cups of coffee made by many different people and machines - I found I could tell how strong any given cup of coffee was, and get a sense of how much milk/water/sugar/syrups might have been added, etc. I could use all this information to create a cup of coffee at home to my own taste/mood. You know, even though I don't take sugar myself, I could tell if sugar had been added and that maybe I'd prefer the coffee without...
I mean, I'm no Gordon Ramsay, but it's kind of nice to have picture of the finished recipe in a cook book, for example? Or to see the picture of the cooked noodles on the Ramen packet in my case .
Quote:2. These are professionally done
Exactly. This is the goal, no? If your mix is comparable then mission accomplished. For me, If my mix sucks in comparison (as is usually the case), then there's still work to be done.
Quote:so what are we looking for? Everything is just perfect to me. I don't hear anything that I shouldn't hear.
Exactly!
A small selection of some of the things I listen for:
Do I like it?
Are there things I don't like and want to change to my taste?
Overall tonality
Mix loudness
Does it sound heavily processed? Or is it a more natural light touch sound?
Instrument Balance
Panning
Effects
Mix Moments - any spot delays and clever effects that grab the ear that I can try and reverse engineer and replicate?
Mix moves (how parts move back and forward in the mix)
Does it have a standout kick/guitar/snare/vocal sound that I want to copy
Does the chorus open up? How is that done? Which parts get louder/wider?
etc...
Quote:I do, however, use references but for different reasons, mostly to calibrate the rattling of my bottom end when compared. In general, frequencies balance. But I only do that when I want my mix to be loud.
I find you can also use reference mixes to help calibrate your ears before you start mixing. Also helps to calibrate the ears to the mixing conventions for different genres of music too?
Quote:I don't mind changing my mind tho if someone comes up with a convincing and practical reason(s) for it. After all my only purpose here is to learn.
Are your mixes beating the library mixes and pro mixes? How do you know if you don't listen and compare to them?
Convincing enough? It's just my point of view though of course. It's not a prescription.
Quote:I am specifically looking for tips and tricks bc I don't feel I know enough. My hearing is getting much better but that's about it. Hearing it and controlling it are two entirely different things, right? I hear all my processors and their reactions, some very clearly, some not so, but I am not worried about it bc I have enough to build momentum on. Learning is a logarithmic curve. All I need is practice and time. I have both. Now that I can hear them, it's the making the decisions that confuses me. Sometimes lengthen the release makes the same pleasant sound as shorten it, so which one? Not to mention lengthen it make another instrument sound better while shorten it bring out the best in a diff one. What to do? When to stop? Which one?...
Maybe check some reference mixes and listen out for those things? Is the kick long/short/punchy? Do you think it works for that mix or not? Might help you to decide what you want for your own mix.
You can always do a few versions of a mix too, print one with a long kick, one with short kick and see which one you prefer. You could always ask the specific question on here too. Sometimes it might not matter. I suppose if you've got a busy mix you might want things shorter so they don't step on other parts, as opposed to a more sparse mix where there is more space for things to spread out a bit.
Quote:You see, I face a much bigger problem now than before. When I first started it, it was the not hearing it that confused me. I stumbled in the dark in unfamiliar terrain with minimum guidance, only the internet+books for roughly 6 years. I just barely begin recently, the hearing part. I am somewhat still outside peeking in the land I fear most, the land of adjectives. This is where the pro talks a bout warmth, punch, sizzles, etc, I think. And this is only the first inch of a thousand mile long journey. I must love mixing. I also love to learn new things equally, if not more.
Not sure if this is what you mean, but to me:
Warmth could mean EQ? More Low mids, Rolled off top end? Muddy? Added harmonics from saturation or wavefolder or whatever?
Punch could be compression - slow attack/fast release. It could be gating - removing the tail. It could be transient designer...
Sizzle could be distortion, or top end eq? Or both? To get sizzle on strings, you could send them to a parallel track, roll off the low end, distort the top end, and blend it back in, for example? You might use a multiband compressor and just squash the top end? etc....
People talk about tape emulations, but to me it's just a rolled off top end and an eq bump at 50 Hz, maybe a little compression, maybe a little saturation/distortion. To me a lot of these things are built up from the same set of basic ingredients, so to speak?
Does that help?
Quote:Btw, I checked out all the links you sent. I knew some of them. Thanks. I cannot listen to the mixes you recommend. Links said I have no authorization or something to that effect. Perhaps bc of the old Mountain Lion iOS. Bummer, but will try again later.
Let me know which links don't work. I think they all work for me. Do they work if you are not logged in? I checked when I wasn't logged in and they were all ok.
Quote:I hope you won't take offense to anything I wrote bc it's not my intention. More like, if you allowed, 2 peers, perhaps with me as a junior, on the children table, discussing a common topic. There will be disagreement (I am very inquisitive by nature) but I hope it's for the sake of learning. Thanks, man. I appreciate what you did. I'll regroup and chew on what you said for a bit and see what remains.
Well, exactly. No offense taken. It's cool to have a different opinion. That's why I said at the start of my previous post that your mileage may vary. It's as simple as I listened to your mixes, and thought of some things that I felt helped me in some way that I thought might help you. If things that worked for me don't work for you, that's ok! Everyone's different. Maybe someone else reading this might have some thoughts and ideas of their own and get something from this discussion, who knows?
I will say though that these last two posts do kind of sum up pretty much all the key things that I've picked up to date that I felt made the biggest difference to my mixes so far.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
09-01-2023, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2023, 01:46 PM by Blitzzz.)
About the reference mixes: As a mixer, I'm there to help a band get the sound they want. It's usually not what I think they should sound like, but that doesn't matter. They paid me to make them sound like band XYZ, and that`s what they expect me to do. Although I should obviously give honest feedback on the recorded material and the chance to sound like band XYZ, it's still their decision. They are the client. This is a situation where reference mixes are super important, so you have to learn to use them to your advantage as early as possible.
For example, in 2016 to 2018, I couldn't have recorded and mixed the Darkride songs in the first place without constantly checking my mixes against reference mixes. I would have failed miserably at hitting the tonality that my bandmates and fans of the genre expected from the mixes. It was often shocking how far off I was, especially when, after hours of messing around with digital EQs and compressors and making minimal changes, I was completely sure I'd nailed it.
Sure, you can break those tonality rules and "create your own sound," but 99 times out of 100, that's just an excuse for miserable mixing decisions combined with miserable mix preparation. If you want to get better at mixing and also build long-term relationships with bands and musicians (who pay you to work for them), try to be the one to help them achieve their goals, even if one of those goals is to sound exactly like band XYZ.
I think both of you (Blitzz & Mikej) are misunderstanding what I said.
The point is: I do not get anything from references as far as learning is concerned. You both have listened to my mix. As you can see (hear), it shows the level I am at wherever it is, mostly at the starting point of the race, imo. I don't care for reference NOT bc I don't care about what the band wants but rather it's a target a bit farther than my aim at current position. You use your vast skills and knowledge to apply to me probably thinking that I am at a higher level than I really am but you are wrong. I am only a beginner. I know that. You both should too to be fair to me. Einstein said, “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree (in my case, I should add "at the wrong time"), it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” If I were the fish, I am only learning how to...swim. Right now, as a mixer, I am only beginning to learn how to listen. What hope do I have giving you what you want as a band? Let's drive this home: if I were a samurai, right now I am using a wooden katana. No one should hire that samurai for protection. No one sane, that is.
But hey, I may find it useful in the future. That happens all the time with me. I'd abandon something and later come back ended up doing better than before. Did that ever happen to you? If so, why am I so special not to have to go thru the same growing pain, right? Blitzzz, it took you 2 years to be able to find reference useful, I suspect it'll take more for me. We are still talking about years tho, plural. Not everybody starts at the same starting point you know. The learning process demands the presence of time.
Btw, is reference=rough mix or reference # rough mix?
I think there is a difference bet reference and rough mix. They are not the same. Correct me if I am wrong in this context.
Reference, to me, is any mix from pro with the same genre. Rough mix is what the band has in mind for that particular song. Right now I find the rough mix more useful than reference mix.
Well, I hope I didn't write anything offensive tho sometimes my delivery is somewhat crude and terse but all for the sake of learning and seeking understanding. It's never out of disrespect. I will always give you back the same in kind. That's for sure.
10-01-2023, 02:15 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2023, 02:18 AM by mikej.)
Hi!
Are you aware of what Blitzzz has achieved with his band Darkride? Personally speaking I'd like to say that his comments and mix notes from his experiences with mixing his band is some of the best mixing advice available anywhere. From my perspective it's the forum equivalent of getting advice from Chris Lord Alge himself.
Anyway,
To me a Rough Mix = quick 5 minute mix of a session's recorded material to get a quick overview of the track.
Reference mix = Professional finished mix you are impressed with and like the sound of that you compare your mix to. When your mix sounds as good or better than the reference mix, it might just be that you are getting somewhere!
I think Blitzzz was saying that he spent two years recording and mixing his bands songs for their album(s), and he used reference mixes to keep on the right track during the mixing process. I don't think he's saying that it took him two years to figure out how to use reference mixes.
The whole point of using reference mixes is the fact that they are great mixes. You might think that they are a stretch too far, but you've got to start to figure out how to close that gap sometime and somehow, right? The advice you've got so far in this thread are some things that have helped others to close that same gap.
Example - how loud should the kick drum be in my mix?
Well, load up a reference mix in your daw, lower the volume level so it's closer to the level of your unmastered mix in progress. Find the fader for the kick drum in your mix, and set it so it sounds about the same volume as the kick in your chosen reference mix. Then do the same for the snare, overheads, bass guitar, lead guitar, vocals etc.
Does that help with getting the point of using them?
You can follow the same process for panning, eq, effects, etc. It's hard work, but you'll find the more you practice, you'll improve your listening skills and also your ability to figure out how to achieve what you want mixing wise. There will still be a lot of trial and error involved as you still have to figure out how to get the results you want (what to eq, what sort of reverb to use, and how much, etc), but it gives you a direction to go in and something to aim for, rather than just randomly trying things out without having a defined goal in mind.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
I get what you're saying, man. I listen to them all my life. All of them are references to me. From Slayers to Bryan Adams. I don't say I will not use them. That would be foolish now, wouldn't it? I find them useful just not in the way you think. I use them too just not the way you use them. I stop using it bc I realized that level is beyond my reach for now. Did I say it will stop me permanently? At one time any compressor, to me, was just a complete useless piece of equipment. I don't think like that anymore. Why does it sound like both of you are trying to tell me how useful it is as if I refuse to use it or, worse, too dumb to realize good advice when I hear one? Neither is true. Have you ever considered that you don't know what I don't know? hell, even I don't know what I don't know. What works for you may or may not work for me, and even if it works for you there may be another way to do it, whether more effectively or not.
Let's granted that happened. I pulled up the ref and raise my kick's fader to where it should be. Then the bass. Here comes the problems. Perhaps this will def help me explain my thinking.
1. Both rattle or muddy or (name your problem here). Cause could be either or both. Solution(s): work on them first (key word) to make sure they agree before I bring them up to a satisfactory level that is comparable to the ref. If that step is not taken bring up anything else can only do more damage. At this stage, imo, ref does help but not significant enough to spend more time on. Learn how to use processors properly (another keyword) first is a better course of action and more economical in term of time. Tips and tricks help me get there faster. This is the level where I am at. I am still learning my processors. If both of you feel you passed that stage, then I am sure you know how hard it is to pass it and perhaps even how long it should take for one to travel the distance. So which one should come first, learning the processors or trying to match with the ref?
Now if I master all my processors and can work them at will (perhaps at your levels), I am sure listening to ref would provide more benefits. That's when the mixing begins. The processors are the first huddles.
I did not know about Blitzzz's accomplishments. I did not know he was responsible for this song. I love his songs regardless as I do to many songs in here tho his seems to provide more pleasure even just listening to, especially the lyrics. I always appreciate the written words. However, I don't have idol worshiping tendency in me. I love the songs, I respect the talents and skills involved but that's pretty much it; I don't care for the writers that much until I interact with them. I neither respect or disrespect them as people. I give their arts the respect they deserve but reserve the rest until then. As an example, I remember Blitzzz made a comment on my mix and I agreed with him. If that's not showing respect, what is? I respect anyone within 2 sentences can destroy and change my ways for the better. But not bc he is Blitzzz. He 's just happened to be. You know what I mean, right?
10-01-2023, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 10-01-2023, 06:22 AM by mikej.)
Well, you are right that you kind of have to know everything and do it all at once, but you get there in small steps doing a bit at a time.
If you're up for it, just as an exercise forget about eq, compression and all the rest of it just for the time being. Try and get as close to the ref mix as best you can but just use the faders and panning. Perhaps spend like 30 minutes to an hour on it. Every track. Edit: I mean like spend 30 minutes to an hour on the whole mix, but set the levels and panning on every track. (I don't mean spend 30 minutes on each track, unless you want to of course...)
Print that mix and check it against the ref, but just listen to the levels and panning and see how close you can get it.
Play back the track and see how it sounds?
Then see if you get some sort of idea of whether you feel you want to tackle the kick, the muddy bass, or something else next?
Oh, and also if you feel like grabbing that eq or the compressor first.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
I have done that lately, just pulling up faders and panning. It helps a great deal by just doing that. And my mixes got a bit better. I learned that a couple months ago and planning on using it all the time from here on out. It usually takes me 1+ hours to do it but never more than 3. It depends on how many tracks and how many thousands guitars they recorded. The most I faced was 16 diff guitars. It was quite a wrestling match. I have learned a way to deal with that.
90% of the time the EQ first. Mostly HP/LP and a hair down on 500Hz, doesn't matter what instrument it is. The LP/HP is applied thru out to all instruments. After that I try to shape the envelope of the sound using compression. So compression is almost always behind EQ for me. Except for the kick/snare, my use of compression is to shave off either the attack or the sustain of the sound. And the purpose is to leave room for something else. Then another EQ for unmasking purposes. I think this is where I mess up big time. Sometimes I carve it a little too deep or not enough. Same with the compressor, sometimes I couldn't hear that I crushed it until the next day. But I am beginning to recognize what a crushed whatever sounds like and how a compressor can make an awesome instrument with flawless performance goes limped. All I need is to find that sweet spot to rest everything on. Easier said than done, but such is life.
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