Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Skelpolu - Human Mistakes (ZX Mix)
#1
I did some things I really try to avoid at all costs when I mix. In particular I mixed this into a limiter. Something I try to avoid doing as I actually do not like using limiters at all. Oh well.

Anyway, the thing I first I noticed when I brought up the actual audio tracks was just how sparse the actual arrangement was. There was actually quite a bit of empty space in the mix to fill up with . . ., uh well space. The big thing I really tried to do was create more of a layered atmosphere rather than an onslaught of energy as IMO the mix could not really support a ton of energy. Of course a fair bit of focus was given to the drums and the bass. But surprisingly the amount of processing on them is actually fairly minimal compared to other parts.

However, this was actually a fun track to work on. The track really did not require a ton of work to separate the verses to the choruses as the composition does it already. Also, I really liked not having to deal with 30+ vocal parts.


.mp3    Skepolu - Human Mistakes (ZX Mix).mp3 --  (Download: 9.58 MB)


Reply
#2
Hey APZX,
I really enjoyed listening to your mix, as the echo on the lead-synth and on the "blip-synth" (is what I think I called it), as it creates a nice, spacey-atmosphere. Smile
This is a really stable mix, I cannot complain about the volume of any instrument. Personally, the mix itself feels colder than I intended it to be, that is only a subjective thing however.
The mix you've probably heard before downloading was Mike's version. My first version was not what he would've called Drum & Bass. Promptly after that, I made my own, better version.
In case you are interested in comparing how two different styles sound like, check yours, then mine here: https://soundcloud.com/skelpolu/human-mistakes
Again, my mix is more about warmth and loudness.

P.S.: Drum & Bass is pretty much about loudness, so using a limiter is not avoidable, unless you do it against the mainstream - I am also actually against the loudness-war, sucks to love Drum & Bass however! ;P
Reply
#3
Skelpolu,
Thanks for taking the time to listen! I actually did not listen to any mixes before I started mixing this. I tend to see what direction the actual composition pushes me to mix towards. Is it say more energetic or perhaps more laid back? Then I like to listen to the rough or actual mix to see just how far off or how close I was.

I understand the "colder" part. But really it was the direction that the actual composition told me to go. The main reason for the way I went was that icey sonar sound. It really set the tone for most of the track. The lead synth I'm assuming is the one during the second chorus right? Because the sound actually has a lot of processing on it. First up was EQ; HPF, LPF, and a high shelf. That feeds into a compressor, Molot (love this comp), where the intention of the compression was more "thickening" and giving it a slightly more aggressive edge. From there I ran it into some good ol' digital distortion to make it more audible to the ear as I felt it did not need to be in the very front of the mix. So, the distortion made it more audible while keeping it out of the way of the other synths and mainly the piano actually. After that I ran it into a delay to make it a little bit more stereo-y. Final thing was to add some reverb. All in all it turned out to work quite well in matching everything else I had done up to that point.

I totally agree about the loudness war and I really felt bad actually coming up with a pretty good sounding initial mix and then slapping a limiter across the master. It just pained to push the volume of the track up and up. I just do not like doing it and it really is a sad state of affairs when that is what must be done.
Reply
#4
Hey APZX,
I hope you did not missunderstand - There is no good or bad when it comes down to personal preference.
I actually like your mix a lot, since I am the artist and I know how I personally want it to sound like, I am completely biased.
Whatever you are hearing from me is subjective, unless it is a major problem, like way too quiet drums & bass for it's genre, but even then it only comes down to what the genre -needs-.
Keep it up, it really sounds good and it is interesting for me to see how different the mix can become the more people give it a try! Smile

Now, the loudness-war ... my final note would be, that it's unecessary for most genres. One exception would be Drum & Bass. Even -I- want to hit the limiter really hard, and it actually took me so long to understand that the limiter is what really pushes it to the limit - literally. Luckily, I understood the concept behind it more and more after I've settled myself in the Drum & Bass genre.

In any case, how did you like the genre (according to my compositional-style)? Just generally it'd be good to know if this Track intrigues people for more.
See you later mate! Smile
Reply
#5
Oh, I take no offense at what you said. Additionally, I too understand the bias of being the artist and listening to way others interpret the actual composition. Every single time I hear things that gives me many ideas. Plus when the mix by others is not about 90% the way I envisioned then I feel my composition has failed to a degree.

As for my thoughts regarding the genre? Well after a recent foray into DnB myself, I went much higher energy though. I can say that I felt it was a very moody piece that has an overall conservative nature to it. That to me makes an interesting listen alone. Another interesting thing was actually the addition of the vocals added another layer that was quite unexpected.
Reply
#6
(08-03-2014, 07:04 PM)Skelpolu Wrote: [M]ine here: https://soundcloud.com/skelpolu/human-mistakes

Thanks for that. I always like to listen to the artist's own mix so I can hear what the original vision was. Smile

However, I do have a quibble which, ironically, you mention yourself:

(10-03-2014, 09:02 AM)Jacques Wrote: P.S.: Drum & Bass is pretty much about loudness, so using a limiter is not avoidable, unless you do it against the mainstream - I am also actually against the loudness-war, sucks to love Drum & Bass however! ;P

Yes, Drum & Bass is about loudness. But I still think you should ditch the limiter. Here's why:

Remember that it's the listener who controls the volume knob, not you. Even if you want your song played loud you can't force the listener to play it loud. We all have our preferred listening volume; if you limit, all that happens is the listener will tend to turn down the volume to their preferred level. In fact, that is exactly what happened when I listened to your mix; I actually reached for the volume control and turned it down from my reference level less than 10 seconds into it. So ultimately you didn't succeed in making your mix "louder" for me, just more fatiguing. That's the folly of the loudness war: people will listen to your music at the level they want to, no matter what level you might prefer them to. Wink

When I mixed your song, I used no limiter on the master buss and, you know what? The dynamic range was still only 10 dB which is, IMHO, the narrowest dynamic range can be without the music being fatiguing on the ears. So I say listen to your instinct and dump the limiter, even if it's "against the mainstream."

Remember, some of the greatest music ever created, music that actually created some of the genres of music of today, began as something that was "against the mainstream." Tongue
John A. Ardelli
Pedaling Prince Pictures
http://www.youtube.com/user/PedalingPrince
Reply
#7
Doesn't surprise me at all that your mix if this is so good; electronics is your forté, after all. Wink

(09-03-2014, 03:23 AM)APZX Wrote: I actually did not listen to any mixes before I started mixing this. I tend to see what direction the actual composition pushes me to mix towards.

That's my general approach as well, though I do tend to listen to a few seconds of the preview mix to give me an idea of the kind of vocal sound (especially reverb) that the artist was gong for since vocals are usually the focal point of a song.

(09-03-2014, 03:23 AM)APZX Wrote: I totally agree about the loudness war and I really felt bad actually coming up with a pretty good sounding initial mix and then slapping a limiter across the master. It just pained to push the volume of the track up and up. I just do not like doing it and it really is a sad state of affairs when that is what must be done.

I disagree that it "must be done." IMHO any time you get a mix you like you should never do anything to it that you don't like just because "that's how everyone else is doing it." That is, at it's most basic level, simple peer pressure, and we all know how much trouble peer pressure gets people into sometimes... Wink

Personally? I hope you'll consider reposting this mix exactly as it is except without that limiting; just normalize it to get the loudest peak to 0 dBFS and see how it sounds. Big Grin
John A. Ardelli
Pedaling Prince Pictures
http://www.youtube.com/user/PedalingPrince
Reply
#8
(10-03-2014, 04:05 PM)Pedaling Prince Wrote: [...]
Remember that it's the listener who controls the volume knob, not you.[...] We all have our preferred listening volume; if you limit, all that happens is the listener will tend to turn down the volume to their preferred level.
[...]
Exactly - oooor the opposite even. That is why it HAS to be done to a comfortable level at least.
Every Drum & Bass listener listens to DnB on high volume. Imagine they listen to a bunch of random Tracks, all DnB. They gotta jump up to get to the volume knob in order to hear something once a track without limiter comes on.
I do agree that, on most genres, you don't need a limiter at all.
Drum & Bass, however - oh, ahahaha ... push it until it's at about 8 to a ( absolute maximum of only ) 6 DR.
It ain't about going against the stream, it's about satisfying your audience - and this audience wants it loud, needs it loud in order to enjoy music fluently.
I did a "limit-less" mix of it before, uploaded it and compared it to the mix I had before, but limited - it was quite clear that the dnb-community liked the lmiited one by far more.

(And just as a note: When I listened to dnb quietly, it ain't that bad with only so little dynamics either. after all, I only listen to it quietly when I do work or when I don't want to listen to music as the main priority )

But again, it's all about taste. I can only assure you that I will stick with the limiter, as it's also kind of art to make it loud while maintaining the sound. Dynamics are not everything, but also not nothing, in certain genres it just ain't that noticable and / or important.
Reply
#9
Pedaling Prince,
Ask and ye shall receive! Though there is a limiter on this too, but it is set to -.2dB mainly to make sure I don't clip the digital side of things. But other than that the mix remains unchanged. Most of the power in the mix was achieved through a master buss compressor though. So, I think you'll find that it just opened up a bit more rather than having any kind of crazy revelation in superior sound quality. Though the DR did jump up by about 3dB at the end Wink The mix is meant to be "powerful" though just try to keep that in mind.

Skelpolu,
I don't listen to mixes loud unless the mix invites me to turn them up. Heavily limited mixes never invite that. In fact when I listen to most mixes I have to engage the dim button on my monitor controller, this reduces the level by 20dB. On most commercial releases to get a comfortable listening level I have to be almost all the way down on my knob as well. This produces on average about a 70dB SPL in my room. I have it calibrated such that -20dBFS RMS is 81dB SPL. To think that to get a similar level of SPL I have to attenuate my listening volume that much to achieve a comfortable listening level is absolutely astounding to me. It really is a crazy world. But honestly I don't think you need limiters to achieve ear blisteringly loud mixes. Compressors and good EQ is more than capable of delivering that.

Edit - Prince, if you want to listen to my most dynamic mix I have ever done, listen to my track From Earth to Planet Omega. (SoundCloud compression is terrible and there is a wonderful FLAC available for download) I did not do the mastering myself on it so it lost some there but definitely for the better. Anyway, the track in its original form swung from like -36dBFS to -11dBFS. Just set the initial listening volume during the very first part of the song and you should not have to worry about changing it despite it getting very loud in a couple of sections.


.mp3    Skepolu - Human Mistakes (ZX Mix)_2.mp3 --  (Download: 9.58 MB)


Reply
#10
(08-03-2014, 03:51 PM)APZX Wrote: I did some things I really try to avoid at all costs when I mix. In particular I mixed this into a limiter. Something I try to avoid doing as I actually do not like using limiters at all. Oh well.

Anyway, the thing I first I noticed when I brought up the actual audio tracks was just how sparse the actual arrangement was. There was actually quite a bit of empty space in the mix to fill up with . . ., uh well space. The big thing I really tried to do was create more of a layered atmosphere rather than an onslaught of energy as IMO the mix could not really support a ton of energy. Of course a fair bit of focus was given to the drums and the bass. But surprisingly the amount of processing on them is actually fairly minimal compared to other parts.

However, this was actually a fun track to work on. The track really did not require a ton of work to separate the verses to the choruses as the composition does it already. Also, I really liked not having to deal with 30+ vocal parts.

Very nice!
To mix or not to mix ... mix!
Reply