Human Mistakes

[pauli]

Thanks, man! I'll give these tips a try and we'll see how it improves. I think I mixed this song more in the indie-electronica vein that you'd expect from Bibio as opposed to the intended sound, and given my liking for his music it's kind of humorous to me that it naturally drifted in that direction

I think the cymbal might be out of time a little, too? maybe I bumped it forward by mistake while making my other edits.

[lolomiel @ le-studambule.com]

Hello,

I like the dark ambiance of this mix, it remember me The Cocteau Twins !

I like the voice at the beginning, and the global creativity, but I feel it losses punch overall, except the end that is the punch I would like to hear along the mix or in some good areas, as the chorus or verse.

[pauli]

Hello,

I like the dark ambiance of this mix, it remember me The Cocteau Twins !

I like the voice at the beginning, and the global creativity, but I feel it losses punch overall, except the end that is the punch I would like to hear along the mix or in some good areas, as the chorus or verse.

thanks for check out my mix! At the end, I'm gain pumping to the kick, so perhaps the mix might be better served by using a similar tactic throughout!

I'm not familiar with the cocteau twins, I'll have to check them out.

[The_Metallurgist]

The Kick should have a HP-filter at about 30Hz~, but a boost at about 60-80Hz~ as well as some highs to make the Kick noticable on smaller speakers.

as most consumer speakers have never heard of sub 80Hz, it's probably wiser to low-cut all your bass content at 40Hz, and make it as steep and aggressive as you can. -36dB/octave or more, applying the same filter on the GB is also a recommendation you'd be wise to employ...and even smack one on the stereo buss while you are at it.

now this 40Hz thing pre-supposes that you are using a kick that lends itself to a cut at this point. you need to use your ears to make the judgement call, and for that you need top monitors and an appropriately treated larger room. this puts it beyond the abilities of many financially challenged musicians, and not just musicians, i hasten to add! so, what to do? use spectral graphics to assistance in deriving energy and density levels. a pair of 2-way Harvey Wallbangers won't do it.

there's a joker in this forum who tried to show his vast superior knowledge and skill by suggesting my ears should be making the decisions, not my eyes. well, it's my brain that makes the decisions, NOT my ears. if i only used what my ears told me, i'd immediately be limiting my ability to assess things by 50 percent, and that's assuming my ears are telling my brain what is REALLY going on, WHICH IT ISN'T!!!! of course, he doesn't know that 60 percent of what you hear from your monitors is actually the room you are hearing, not the mix!!!!! lol

be mindful that most small and even medium sized rooms just don't do bass levels well (show me your waterfall chart), so what you are hearing ain't likely to be what is really happening in your mix. this is where your eyes can help your brain make the judgement...because your ears WILL BE throwing you all over the place if left to their own devices......

you might not think 10Hz isn't much of a difference between 30Hz and 40Hz, but it's the same drama as 12,000Hz is from 16,000Hz!!!!! both are half an octave.

with consumer gear again in mind, boosting at 60Hz or even 80Hz is seriously bad news if you know anything about speakers! what you need is power from the kick, and this comes a bit higher up in the harmonics, around 120Hz, depending on your choice of kick. if you get the power right, and hit the appropriate frequency, small speakers will deliver it by default, because the harmonics associated with this frequency will likewise get the benefit. QED.

the attack of the kick can be found somewhere around 1,000-3000Hz, and a boost around here to suit your tastes, will make a big difference.

all this talk about boosting is for kids, however!!!!! you can achieve more power by cutting in the right places. this is IMPERATIVE if you wish to keep your mixes clear. then you can crank the fader up and not cause speaker distortion by over-stressing the woofers.

the word here that's missing, is "bandwidth". if a speaker can't handle delivering sub frequencies or bass in general, it won't stop it from trying. and in doing so, it will lose mid-range focus and cloud the mix up as well as suck the "loudness" out.

if you know anyone with yamaha NS10's, feed it some sub material and view the woofer sideways on. you will see it pumping it's heart out, but you won't hear a darn thing! but any bass-handicapped speaker will show you this, just that NS10's do it so well! understand?

i intentionally mix with my Focals low cut at 80Hz so i can see and hear immediately when things aren't right...and if i want to check sub bass delivery, i switch the sub woofer into the 2.1 arrangement from my desk - 2 mouse clicks. i rarely put the sub on.....normally it's towards the end of the mix process. you need to find what works best for you. my final arrangement took years and many journey's down blind alleys.

Aside from that, the Bass itself is intended to be phat as well, so no low-cutting there! Instead, I sometimes even boost the entire sub-area by 3-5 dB if I think the highs are at a comfortable level but I need more subs.

maybe it's because you don't understand audio and use KRK's? lol

Last but not least: Try doing some sidechaining on the Bass, oriented by the Kick. Since both are bass-instruments, they fight against each other.

i agree and disagree. it depends on what frequencies you are talking about. merely smacking a sidechain on an instrument is a novice's approach. what you need to do, is sidechain ONLY the frequencies that are truly masking....and that's NOT all of them. of course, if you want the full sidechain pumping effect on a bass instrument, then you want the whole instrument to be affected, not just it's low end. you need to approach each situation individually, of course - it's not a one-size-fits-all thang.

the deep thinkers among you, will take this idea and apply it elsewhere in your mixing and dominate the world, the rest will form the lower ranks of the pyramid

Hasta'
Dave

[pauli]

Thanks for dropping in and bringing your technical knowledge to the table, Dave!

I think Skelpolu is right that the track needs more low end, based on references and genre expectations. I guess most DnB listeners consider Pendulum to be the quintessential DnB outfit and a quick spectral analysis revealed a lot of sub bass information that my rattling subwoofer cabinet led me to suspect. My instinct is that most consumers who enjoy this style of music are connoisseurs of the genre and most likely to have equipment that can reproduce those frequencies, given that all the DnB acts I checked seem to include them without reservation. My reservation however is that the bass line might be moving a little too quickly for even those systems to reproduce accurately unless I can find a way to really surgically separate the bass and the kick, and in my listening environment I may have to over-rely on an analyzer... what's really going on down there and what people are actually going to experience might have little relation to one another... or might be directly related, but without a more appropriate room it'd be hard to be sure.

Given a better room, my instincts tell me the best strategy for getting the bottom end to genre appropriate levels would be to feed the bass part's side-chain with the kick drum as suggested, but in doing so activating either a multiband compressor or a dynamic EQ if compression is too blunt an instrument. Taking a look at the analyzer, it'd be pretty obvious where the low end buildups are happening, so focusing the compressor/dynamic EQ in those areas of buildup until a more controlled response is evident would be the most likely solution. Nip those buildups and you'd have quite a bit more headroom to raise the volume without distortion.

Given my low end limitations, however, I chose to mix the song as I would a more experimental electronica type tune, and give it a little touch of daft punk style pumping at the end Since I wasn't capable of tackling the technical aspects of dealing with that sort of low end power, I played to my strengths and focused on the musical aspects of the mix!

Thanks again for comments and suggestions!

[The_Metallurgist]

Given my low end limitations....

Hi Pauli,

my comments were general in nature, rather than engaging in your mix specifically, because i am aware that boosts can be a hazard as much as a benefit...sometimes both at the same time!

it's always the low end that sorts the men out from the boys, simply because of all the technical requirements that needs alignment; one thing astray is sufficient to mess up so it pokes in the face, or doesn't poke quite enough Balance is difficult. ultimately, it's why any serious mixer should leave the bass element tuning to a Mastering Engineer who's acoustic environment and gear set-up has been installed by a "qualified" Acoustician. so, unless someone has "known" acoustics in their private studio, you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be right, and not right in a BIG way. ignorance is bliss.

and of course, all those out there who give feedback and say the bass is good, or it's not, are most likely making judgement using criteria that is perhaps totally inappropriate....like an untreated room, with an unknown frequency response, and with 2-way monitors! adding a sub-woofer into the equation simply magnifies the issues of a room's modes...the smaller the room, the bigger the problem. it's all very complicated down this end of the business. if you ever tire of counting sheep, i can recommend some good books on acoustics which never fails. it even beats watching cricket IF you take mixing REALLY seriously, you have no choice. it will also help you understand the issues DIY musicians have in trying to get semi decent recordings to us.....and how their issues impose constraints on our mixing, and by default limit the extent of quality outcome that is actually achievable...but YOU will get the blame if it doesn't suit their expectations. Angels in Amplifiers....might be a good example of inherent issues, by way of example. but because of the nature of DIY, mixing of such projects end up as damage limitation exercises. so, instead of adding polish to the recordings, one ends up trying to repair damaged goods....but the DIY'er might think it's fine. i digress, but it has relevance, me thinks.

i think anyone who criticises or even comments regarding the levels of bass in the forum, most likely isn't the best qualified to do so. and if they insist, ask to see their waterfall chart of their room's acoustics. this normally shuts them up pretty quickly.

if this helps you... i use my headphones to get a more reliable handle. at least this removes the room and all it's associated issues, but this too, isn't without issue. but you need good headphones which often cost as much as a pair of monitors, and even these are a compromise, because only the more expensive ones are capable of delivering both bass, mid-range clarity, and a representative high end....that whole spectral balance thing. some do it better than others.

and i use my sub when i want my trousers to flap or dry my hair

i have 3 pairs in the house...2 for the studio (Sennheiser HD650's and Bayerdynamic 880 pros), and one for the lounge - the Ovation II's, and they each have their own individual attributes. one will give a better representation of a genre than another because of the spectral content diversity of the genres and the attributes of the headphone. this takes some getting used to as well.

ultimately, to get a rough idea(!), you need to play the music over different gear, and as much gear as possible. that way you can take the average and achieve a more reliable perspective. probably not practical with mixes in the forum, but worth the effort if it's your own material. note that it's not the gear you will be listening to, but the way the gear is interacting within the acoustic space. no two spaces are the same....which is why the same speaker in different rooms, will sound.....different.

so, if someone criticises your bass in any mix here, take it as a pinch of salt. employing spectral analysis tools can be a useful guide when used along side reference materials which you've learned to trust, but the more tools you exploit, the more reliable/accurate your "average" becomes.

be alive to the fact that to absorb an 80Hz frequency, you need 1 meter of absorbancy to stop it banging around your room. and if you don't, then you could be sitting in one hell of a deep null, and pushing your fader up because you think the frequency is insufficient!!!!! so, all this talk about boosting this and that frequency becomes pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, wouldn't you say?

i've tried to keep it short, sorry if i've gone on a bit. but hopefully some of it will resonate with you and is of use...if you don't already know it.

cheers
Hasta
Dave

[pauli]

thanks as always for the detailed technical discussion! I agree with you on all points. the spectral analyzer right now is the best tool I have for bass purposes, and on this tune using a more appropriate reference probably would've clued me in on the under inclusion of lows. This was a really fun project, though, so I'll give it a revisit to give the bass another shot. Even if falling short somewhat is inevitable, I'm a scrappy little fighter and I'll figure out a way to make it work

[Pedaling Prince]

This is my effort to break out of my rut of conservative mixing and apply my creativity to a mix. I wrote some lyrics and recorded them and shuffled everything around... basically rendered the entire intended message of the tune out of context and into something much darker...

Even before I read the comments I knew you weren't using any compression on this track. A nice, natural, smooth sound! Very nice! Furthermore, I love the trick you did at the end, putting compression only on that last part for effect. Now that is an effective use for compression, to bring the volume of one part of a recording up relative to the rest of it for dramatic effect. Well done! I also love the way this song ties in so nicely with my personal artistic interpretation of the song (see my mix in the forum here for a full description of it).

Just a couple of suggestions. First, I would lengthen that fade out significantly; let it go out gradually. I think it would be a lot more effective that way. Second, and this is more a matter of taste, I really miss the piano that was part of the original mix. That might be just me since, as I've stated in the past, I have a strong preference for acoustic instruments, anyway, but I still feel that this particular song benefits from that extra touch of humanity in amongst all the synths.

Also, regarding other comments made on this, bear in mind that it's possible to get too bogged down in the technical end of things. If you know your equipment and its limitations well then your ears are your best tool. Myself personally I rarely use any kind of spectrum analyzer unless I'm having difficulty resolving a particular problem, most often when vocal tone doesn't sound right. Sometimes it helps, when something sounds off, to have a visual representation of that sound to help you figure out where the problem might be. But if it already sounds right to you? It's probably fine.

Yes, it's true the equipment you have and the room you're in are important factors to how something will sound to you. That's why it's vital to be familiar with your equipment and environment. My setup is hardly a "professional" one but I've been listening to music on these speakers and headphones for over a decade; I know exactly how my environment affects the sound of any recording from hours and hours of listening to professional recordings and my own. So, if you hear something in one of my mixes you don't like it's not because I'm being affected by my room; it's because I liked the sound the way you're hearing it.

Of course, that doesn't mean I won't be open to hearing your opinions; it's the nature of art, even an art as technical as ours, that suggestions made by others will frequently lead you to ideas you would not have considered but end up liking better than your own.

Ultimately, there's no "right" or "wrong" approach. In the end, it all comes down to whether people like what they hear, or they don't. The same is true of all art forms.

[pauli]

Hey John, thank you for commenting and kind words!

I'll have to take another look at the piano track in this song because this first time I tried mixing this I wasn't able to get a sound I liked out of it... but in your mix and others I've heard it used quite nicely and (I'd like to think) I've learned a bit and gained some skills since this attempt, so I'd like to try and add a little more character

I'm with you for the most part about master bus compression... I think the lack of master bus compression (or extremely discriminate, tasteful use thereof) is one of the myriad of reasons that albums like Thriller and The Nightfly sound so natural despite their synthetic sounds... and album that feature too much compression and limiting can sound great and exciting for a few songs, but then I have to rest my ears Having said that, I'm glad you like the tactic I used... I read somewhere that gain pumping to the kick can simulate the ears natural reaction to very loud sounds, to auto-compress the sounds in order to protect your hearing, so using this tactic can allow us to psycho-acoustically suggest that the music is screamingly loud without ruining it with excessive limiting. I used a similar effect for APZX's Lacuna and was very pleased with the result

I was actually looking for a sample from a captain kirk line (What are you? Machine, or being?) to add more interest to the long intro but couldn't find one so I rigged up my own...

Anyway, I talk too much. Thanks for taking the time to listen and I'm glad you like it, as I rather enjoyed your rendition as well. I'll have to catch up on your posting... I fell behind when I got stuck on a mix fraught with technical considerations that were making musical considerations almost impossible :/ but I'll be dropping in to see what you've been up to!

[The_Metallurgist]

.........if you hear something in one of my mixes you don't like it's not because I'm being affected by my room; it's because I liked the sound the way you're hearing it.

this statement is incorrect and naive.

you have no way of telling how much you are being affected by your room. all untreated rooms, without exception, will have "severe" frequency response issues. headphones sacrifice stereo and depth image, and most will have extremely uneven frequency response issues too. being familiar with your gear doesn't address these problems, but merely conditions our brain's perceptions and colour's judgement. yes, even yours John......

i'd also add in passing, that if you can look at a spectrum for a vocal and deduce the tone from such, you are likely to be the first in living history to do so.

when did you last have your hearing professionally checked, by the way?