Well, for what it's worth - the good news is that I think the mix is really quite good aside from the bass issue. So lets see if we can figure out what the issue is between us.
I've attached a file, roughly level matched to -6db with a section of your mix_5 first, then a section of my mix. In theory you should notice a big difference in the sub bass, around 60Hz. Play the file in your DAW and check the frequency spectrum. You should notice on a spectrum analyser that the low end more or less balances with the top end.
Now - Does the second half of the file sound like it has too much bass to you? Or not much different?
I have a couple of thoughts (I'll have another read back through this thread in a bit):
I assume the speakers do have bottom end from what you have been saying and from our previous discussions.
- You could be hearing too much bass in your current position in the room, so it sounds fine to you, but bass light to us. You might be able to compensate for this by moving things around a bit, or perhaps by rolling off the bass on your speakers if you have a bass rolloff switch. Might be interesting to know what you have these set to.
- You might not realise how much bass you can put in the mix around 60Hz (unlikely, but you never know - took me a while to figure it out).
I hope the attached file will be of some practical use anyway.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
30-09-2021, 12:19 AM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2021, 12:51 AM by SonicTramp.)
(29-09-2021, 11:40 PM)mikej Wrote: Hi,
I've just listened to mix 5.
Well, for what it's worth - the good news is that I think the mix is really quite good aside from the bass issue. So lets see if we can figure out what the issue is between us.
I've attached a file, roughly level matched to -6db with a section of your mix_5 first, then a section of my mix. In theory you should notice a big difference in the sub bass, around 60Hz. Play the file in your DAW and check the frequency spectrum. You should notice on a spectrum analyser that the low end more or less balances with the top end.
Now - Does the second half of the file sound like it has too much bass to you? Or not much different?
I have a couple of thoughts (I'll have another read back through this thread in a bit):
I assume the speakers do have bottom end from what you have been saying and from our previous discussions.
- You could be hearing too much bass in your current position in the room, so it sounds fine to you, but bass light to us. You might be able to compensate for this by moving things around a bit, or perhaps by rolling off the bass on your speakers if you have a bass rolloff switch. Might be interesting to know what you have these set to.
- You might not realise how much bass you can put in the mix around 60Hz (unlikely, but you never know - took me a while to figure it out).
I hope the attached file will be of some practical use anyway.
Cheers!
**Thanks for joining the conversation.
Yes, I can hear the differences. The latter part is not that much louder tho I noticed the differences in sound quality. The part is thicker and bassier, and volume seems to rise but not alarmingly. There is no change in my sitting position up till now.
I do have a roll-off switch which I left it at 0. I was thinking bc I have them far enough from the wall (~3 ft or a meter) to have to mess with. I can do -2dBs or -4dBs. I'll start with 2 then and see.
I did move around a bit. I found some places where there is no sound, other places are much louder. What I did was to avoid those extremes and sit where I could still hear the bass but not as loud/low. I am sitting around ~38% from the wall im facing, not intentionally but in safe place nevertheless.
I hope I give you guys enough info, cause without them, there is no help. Thanks
**I did a quick push on the bass to see if it's enough. I switched the bass rolloff from the HS8 to -4dBs. After that, the bass doesn't sound as loud thus allowing me to push it harder. (No EQ just straight up pushing the fader). Man, I hope this is it. The thought of having to do many many things I don't understand about acoustic to my room is killing me. If possible tell me in terms of dBs. Thanks
30-09-2021, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2021, 01:51 AM by mikej.)
Hi,
It's a bit better, but still some ways to go with the low end there.
To be honest I think it is just a case of putting in the right amount of low end and learning to hear what that sounds like with your speakers in your room. This is where listening at a fixed level, using the analyser and also level matched references helped me.
Some mix ideas that may help:
I just found my mix session. The real low end in this mix comes from the kick I think. It is the blend of the bass with the kick that gives that low end. I used very few plugins really. The only plugin on each kick channel is an eq, and I have an ssl bus comp on the drum bus. Bass just has an eq on each bass track, and some slight eq on the bass bus. For me, this mix was mainly about getting the right volume balance between tracks.
I've added analyser screenshots of your mix_5 and mix_6, and also my mix as a ref for the low end. I've also added a screenshot of the kick 1 and bass 1 eqs too. Hopefully this will all help?
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
*Sure, man . You've been feeding me quite a few things. Thank you. I appreciate the effort.
We're all in it together, so what I am going thru is nothing new to any of you. You just beat me to it. But just bc I started late doesn't mean I am getting it any easier. I get quite a whipping and blood coming out of my ears and eyes all the time. And there is no sign of it stopping in the foreseeable future either. Sometimes I wish there is a Devil so I can just pawn my soul out for mixing, easier that way. Well, I reckon that nothing lasts forever, even pain, so I'll tough it out and see who dies first, me or the mix. We'll see .
Anyway, I pulled the rolloff 4 dBs down from the HS8 and it sounded kinda not too bad. Seemed like I was heading in the right direction, so I decided to mix my first mix with the adjustment.
The move allows me to hear deeper bass and better lower midrange. I am not sure I have reached my optimal mixing position yet for the time being. But here it is after roughly 5 hours of work. I hope I got the bass to an adequate level. I guess the mix is still rough around the edges but that's not the point, right? Thanks, man.
Your new mix sounds a lot better in the low end, to my taste you could boost it even further. In this mix my primary focus would be on the general balance of the instruments since some stand out too much. Also, the chorus drops again in energy - but that should be a manner of pushing the faders.
I think the best would be to take your time and listen to your favorite records. Learn how your system sounds and behaves and how you can consistently recreate the sound you want.
I took my time and started using (good) headphones in addition to speakers. Not only do they reproduce the very lows a bit better, but also they don't care about room acoustics and are much more consistent (I could reproduce my sound anywhere on earth). Some professionals mix only on headphones (I think it's Andrew Scheps that did some interviews on his workflow?) others don't. In my opinion, the best is trying things out - if it helps: good, if not: try something else.
Your new mix sounds a lot better in the low end, to my taste you could boost it even further. In this mix my primary focus would be on the general balance of the instruments since some stand out too much. Also, the chorus drops again in energy - but that should be a manner of pushing the faders.
I think the best would be to take your time and listen to your favorite records. Learn how your system sounds and behaves and how you can consistently recreate the sound you want.
I took my time and started using (good) headphones in addition to speakers. Not only do they reproduce the very lows a bit better, but also they don't care about room acoustics and are much more consistent (I could reproduce my sound anywhere on earth). Some professionals mix only on headphones (I think it's Andrew Scheps that did some interviews on his workflow?) others don't. In my opinion, the best is trying things out - if it helps: good, if not: try something else.
*Thanks for the advice. I will do that. Why not? I have a pair of decent cans (AKG 712pro). Tbh, I wish I can just mix with H-phones. Much easier as far as mobility/convenience is concerned. I tried but failed. Maybe it's a good time to come back for another visit. And sure, who doesn't know Andrew Scheps and his complete transition to ITB? I bet that doesn't sit well with those who invested if not millions, hundreds of thousands on equipment. His move inspires me. Swimming against the current has its own reward, and some reward cannot be measured by money. He practically kicked the door wide open for us little guys.
Yep, I have been listening to my speakers for the last couple months and grow to like them more than my cans. Feeling the music hitting my ears from the speakers gives me a different kind of high. Hard to describe. Somehow, more satisfying .
Sure, I'll work on it more. There's nothing I rather do anyway. It'll take some time for me to get used to listen to new sound from my speakers and work on the balancing act accordingly. If I can hear it, I think I can find a way to control it. "It's the punch that you don't see coming that hurts" It's what I don't hear or recognize that hurts my mix. I am learning . Thanks, man, for the time. I really appreciate it.
30-09-2021, 11:03 PM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2021, 11:45 PM by mikej.
Edit Reason: quick edit for clarity.
)
Hi!
Woohoo!
I think you pretty much got it sorted now . The -4db down mix is sounding really very good here. Great work! The low end sounds fine here.
Yeah it can be frustrating but as you can see in this thread (and have mentioned) you are not alone in this, and reading through there's some great real world practical advice in this thread from others that have been in exactly the same position.
Regarding headphones - for me I decided to use my monitors as the master reference (I have a fixed volume level set that I can go back to also). The monitors go much lower freq wise than any headphones I have. My room is problematic but I just get on with it. Any issues I hear on headphones or other speakers I go back to my monitors and figure out how to both hear and correct the issues there as best I can.
Check out the 14 minute mark on the video I've linked below - as they are talking about mixing on headphones, they talk from the perspective of having the headphones as the master reference, I do the same thing, but I use the monitors as the master reference.
Headphones and earbuds I find are a useful mix check. I do have one pair of cheap studio headphones (AKG240 that I got for 30 quid from Amazon) that I found I can actually mix on and they translate to the speakers ok. I've got a couple of pairs of more expensive headphones that I discovered are actually quite useless for me and I found that they actually caused me quite a lot of problems, despite being highly rated. My point is you got to find out what works for you, as we are all different.
To be honest I feel it is a case of just learning and keeping in mind how whatever system you happen to be mixing on translates to other systems.
Here's a pretty good recent video on the puremix channel where Andrew and Fab are discussing mixing on headphones that is worth a watch. I recall what they discuss also makes sense from the perspective of mixing on speakers too.
Anyway, the main thing is that your mixes have got much much better, especially now your bass/low end issue is hopefully well on the way to being solved.
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!
I think you pretty much got it sorted now . The -4db down mix is sounding really very good here. Great work!
Yeah it can be frustrating but as you can see in this thread (and have mentioned) you are not alone in this, and reading through there's some great real world practical advice in this thread from others that have been in exactly the same position.
Regarding headphones - for me I decided to use my monitors as the master reference (I have a fixed volume level set that I can go back to also). The monitors go much lower freq wise than any headphones I have. My room is problematic but I just get on with it. Any issues I hear on headphones or other speakers I go back to my monitors and figure out how to both hear and correct the issues there as best I can.
*I still want to go back and learn to mix with headphone tho. I think it's better to learn to mix with monitor first. Here's my reason. When I mixed with headphone, I never got to hear anything lower than 100Hz, and we all know what that means. I hear bass when I cranked it up, but "bass" is far away from specific frequency. Let alone anything lower than that. It was impossible for me to hear them and therefore balance them. I gave up and bought the HS8.
However, when I listen to my mix (from speakers) in my headphone, I hear how it reproduces those frequency and recognize them better than before I knew what they sounded like. I guess it's a backward way of learning but that's the reason for me. I don't regret buying the speakers at all bc they show me what those frequencies sound like in live setting.
Check out the 14 minute mark on the video I've linked below - as they are talking about mixing on headphones, they talk from the perspective of having the headphones as the master reference, I do the same thing, but I use the monitors as the master reference.
*sure will. Thanks
Headphones and earbuds I find are a useful mix check. I do have one pair of cheap studio headphones (AKG240 that I got for 30 quid from Amazon) that I found I can actually mix on and they translate to the speakers ok. I've got a couple of pairs of more expensive headphones that I discovered are actually quite useless for me and I found that they actually caused me quite a lot of problems, despite being highly rated. My point is you got to find out what works for you, as we are all different.
*True that.
To be honest I feel it is a case of just learning and keeping in mind how whatever system you happen to be mixing on translates to other systems.
Here's a pretty good recent video on the puremix channel where Andrew and Fab are discussing mixing on headphones that is worth a watch. I recall what they discuss also makes sense from the perspective of mixing on speakers too.
Anyway, the main thing is that your mixes have got much much better, especially now your bass issue is hopefully well on the way to being solved.
Cheers!
*Phew! That was scarily fun. Your comment helps with my confidence in the room. It seems the switch did the trick. Did not know the magnitude of the impact. Lesson learned. All I need to do is to have those absorber made properly instead of blankets and duffle bags. So from here on out the pressure is on me. Woohoo!
A big thank you to everybody who participated in this conversation. It helps. We have evidence . Now I can go on and learn to mix. Thanks, man.
Well, you guys talked me into it, especially after watching Scheps' video (thanks MikeJ). That's just too much weight on me, so I decided to go back to the cans and give them another try after a couple months stayed completely away. It's not like I am taking a big risk or anything. This time, tho, I hear things differently, and it seemed easier to work with, especially the bottom end.
I spent about 6-8 hours learning how they sound and react to my moves, and it's not too bad. What I did differently was, yeah, a lot of LP and HP on the bass, things that I wouldn't normally do, not this drastic. For example, the sineoid bass (bass2) was LP all the way down to, good Lord, 230Hz. Bass 1 LP to 6kHz, and bass 3 HP to 528Hz and LP to 9kHz. One the bottom end is sorted out, I found that the rest is much easier to mix. For example, I couldn't for the life of me got all the guitars all represented, and that piano is buried down there somewhere before I did that to the bass. I also couldn't get the snare at the transition part from the chorus to break to slam either.
I hope I do better with headphones. That would save me a lot of money (to treat the room) and heartaches (sucky mixes). I think my mix translates better when mix with headphones and check with monitors than the other way around. The most important thing is to sort out the bass. Or suffer the consequences like I did. I remember reading somewhere that the pros spend a lot of time working on the low end, and only now I know why.
Let me know what you think of the mix and whether I should stick with headphones (preferred) or abandon them for the HS8. I think the headphones helps me but I would be more confident if you agree too. How does it translate on your ends is what I really want to know. Thanks for the listen. No need for long post (unless you want to), just a thumps up for a go ahead is good for me. Thanks
.
. You've been feeding me quite a few things. Thank you. I appreciate the effort.