Actions - Devil's Words (3.0)

[mikej]

Hi,

Another attempt...

Update: ...and another. Mix 2.1 added.
Update: ...and another. Mix 2.2 added.
Update: ...and another. Mix 3.0 added.

Cheers!

[Roy]

I'm losing the bass. I hear it. It pokes through but it doesn't seem to do the role of anchoring the lows of the song. The chorus gets pretty washed out. It feels like a compression thing or maybe just loud guitars. I like the extra spark of energy but I think the vocal suffers. I like the bridge flange but it's loud and the vocal gets lost. I general the vocal feels like an afterthought.

On second listen maybe the guitars could feel a little less 'excited'. They use up a lot of the overall energy. This song really straddles the line between pop and rock and I feel like it should be more pop.

Aslo, I have a hangnail that is annoying me and making me ornery. Apropos of nothing but certain environmental factors can have an impact on how I'm perceiving things. There's also at least one typo, let's see if you can find it!

Does any of this make sense? I'm mostly asking for myself because I'm bad at critiquing.

[Roy]

Addendum. ( I put the dumb in Addendum. ((take that Moz))

I listened to your first mix. Not because I was a stalker but a narcissist (as has been established before). I was looking back to see if I had mixed this myself and saw your previous mix.

Now, I'll admit, the first mix (from here on called the 'first mix') sounds weird to me. Mono but washy. I can't put my finger on it and who would in this day of Covid? But, that said, I think it fit's the overall tone of the song better. It has more of a solid body. There are issues with it but I think you were on the right track that time. The new mix feels a bit too aggressive. That's a poor choice of words. Macho? Confrontational? I'm honestly just going through the thesaurus at the moment. Anyway. I think there's a middle ground. At least emotionally.

[mikej]

Thanks for checking it out, and for the critique.

It's supposed to be pop-punk I think? Which is one of the genres I think I most struggle with.

So I am currently trying to work at not sucking at it, which isn't going too well so far I fear.

'Official' video mix on YouTube is more on the dull? side of things, in comparison with the library mix which is more on the shiny? brighter? clear? and exciting side.

So I get it that my mix is probably worse than if I had just plonked the raw tracks in the DAW, randomly twiddled the faders and hit the render button.

Maybe some already suspect that is the mixing strategy I normally employ but alas is not the case sadly. (It does occur to me that my time might be better employed writing some sort of mix randomization script and to just keep running it until a somewhat acceptable mix happens to fall out by chance - rather than attempting to use my skill and judgement).

Do the drums and vocals need to be louder in the mix? Guitars not so loud? Maybe the vocal needs to be brighter as well as louder and some mids mud cut from it. How do I go about getting a decent guitar tone for this.... What is a decent guitar tone? More dull (video mix), or more exciting (Library mix)? What to aim for generally with the balance if we assume it is pop-punk? Do I try listening to Sum 41 or Blink 182? Green Day? Are those still the references for this sort of thing (rather than Dua Lipa or whoever).

What is the current ref for this stuff? I feel that half my issues are maybe down to a matter of taste and direction (and not enough breaks...) I do feel that generally I am currently missing something somehow so need to practice more.

In your first post, you misspelled 'Also' as 'Aslo'. I think you meant to write 'In general', not 'I general'. Unless you are asserting rank, in which case you might write something like: 'I, General, think that the vocal feels like an afterthought'.

Oh, I barely remember the first mix, but it is surely equally as terrible. Halp!

Cheers!

[Roy]

Maybe it's supposed to be pop punk but it doesn't feel very punk. And maybe I'm being accidentally sexist.

I haven't heard either the official or reference mix (at least not in a while) so it's hard to say. I'm just going by the impression I get from the song.

I never felt that your mixes were a plonk and render thing. This one just feels off. It's cool and it happens.

I have no idea what the current refs are for stuff like this.

I just thought 'aslo' was my only typo and now I'm gutted. Or maybe I should just lean into the I, General mistake.

Check out the other mix. I'm not going to label either as 'terrible' but you definitely had a different vision at that time that I think is a better starting point for the song.

I dunno. Are you a Patreon? I know Mike apparently talked about this at some point. Maybe he has better insights.

[Roy]

I've listened to both the original and reference mix and I can't say I love either. Not that I have any better option and maybe there's something elemental in the tracks that just bothers me. I have to look at the original tracks, I suppose

[mikej]

I am not a patreon, but I did listen to the podcast - that particular episode is available to listen to for free (link is currently on the library download site).

I think I have a general issue with that style of guitar tonally. Distorted guitar is basically noise, and you can shape it however you like. Dull, bright, mid forward, more bassy, mid shy, etc... There is obviously a somewhat right and wrong solution.

Mixing skill aside, possibly the challenge with this track is that it employs a more 'singing' style of vocal, rather than the more usual more aggressive, shouty ish vocal. Does that make sense?

Cheers!

[mikej]

Posted an updated mix. Thoughts?

Cheers!

[Roy]

2.1 is definitely an improvement. My ears are a little off because I've been messing with it but it's lot better. The Lead Vocal in the chorus could pop slight more. It has more to fight against. I almost always split the vocal into a verse and chorus track. The same setting rarely always works.

It sounds a lot better. It could be polished a bit but feels right overall.

[mikej]

Thanks for checking back.

Yeah I just did a quick general raise and lower of the vocal automation that was there already. I should really go back through and redo all the automation, etc properly.

I think my ears are more than a little off, and they get burned out quickly with these kind of guitar tones. I dunno, the guitar kind of feels a little bit dull now maybe, but it did feel ok when I did it... I'd had a decent break from it before I revisted it though.

If I listen to tracks like Sum41 Fat Lip I kind of want to add a bit more 3k to the guitar here, but I think the issue is adding more 3k or more 6-8k means it kind of fights with vocal too much.

Maybe just boosting those kind of freqs for the intro, where there is no vocal would work though, as I think the guitar eq is ok during the chorus parts, etc. I guess it's probably easy to keep wanting to pile on more top end to the guitar as my ears get tired.

I find that I generally have no luck trying to match guitar tones. I'm thinking spending some time tomorrow playing about with the guitar tone with a few of the more 'fixed frequency eq' types (neve 1073 type of thing, api graphic, maybe ssl channel also) might help. I suppose it is a bit of a juggling act anyway to get it right in the context of genre and the song itself. Not to mention taste (or lack thereof) too.

I have found that listening at quite a low volume does seem to help somewhat with setting volume, tones and balance. I just need to figure out the rest of it... I do honestly really struggle with this kind of guitar tone.

I find I am somewhat happier with snares recently though, so I guess heavy guitars is just something else that I need to keep plugging away at!

Cheers!