Great song, brilliant vocal performance

[Krabbe]

What a great vocal performance! Really strong. And, of course, a nice song. I enjoyed it very much. Apart from the abysmal drum recordings I actually enjoyed every bit of it.

Tips, tricks and comments are very welcomed

Update version 1
So I gave it another go, just because it really is a nice song

[Roy]

I'm in a bad mood as I've stated in a previous post. You misspelled "Jacks" in the file and I'm livid. Be prepared....

It's fine. Generally pretty good. I say this a lot but it could "breathe" more. I wish the chorus opened up more but I always say that. Nothing's offensive though. Let me listen again...

I really like the intro. I don't know why it falls off and I'm not sure it's a mix issue.

I feel like the vocal loses steam. And it's the nature of the part. He hits and pushes the top of the sections and kind of resolves and I think the last parts of sections tend to fall back a bit too much.

The tonal balance pretty much works. It feels like a song. It could move me more. I can't tell you how or why. It feels like a song that needs help in the mix. Maybe its the general guitar pedal and the staccato bass.

I get this all isn't all that helpful. There's just not much to complain about but it could inspire the listener more so it's in that nebulous area. But I won't lie and say it's great. I warned you that I was in a bad mood.

[Roy]

I listened again. Maybe it's the general mono-ness that bothers me. It might obscure the vocal. Not sure.
E: In general the vocals are hard to decipher. In most the mixes I've heard. I've never had a solid grasp of all the words. There's just something about the recording.

[Krabbe]

First, thank you for your time and your input. Much obliged.

Now, I agree with everything you've said. Not because you're right, but because you're in a bad mood, and hopefully me agreeing will make you feel better ...

On a serious note, I actually agree with you in all you've said.

I've been paying too little attention to the lead vocal, which needs more detailed automation. As it is, it's too uneven, as you've mentioned. Do I think that a part of the issue is in the arrangement of the song.

I too struggle a llittle with the intelligibility. I tried to balance the vocal with focus entirely on intelligibillity , but all I got from that were a vocal so loud that even a deaf person would hear it. I guess, I should have EQ'ed more aggressively in the vocal domain.

It could breathe more. I too miss that. I suspect that it's an arrangement issue. In general, now it's getting all philosophical, I prefer that the breathing comes natural from the arrangement. In this particular song it doesn't really, so I've use dynamic panning and additional busses to create a feeling for width in certain places. I many ways, I feel that this is a rather undynamic song which obviously makes breathing a bit difficult. I mean, there are not a lot of elements to create this organic feeling.

The intro is very energetic and promising. However, I don't feel that the "promises" of the intro are being fulfilled in the verse. I'd say that it's mainly an arrangement issue, but I wouldn't rule out that I could have done a better job helping this transition. The same with the chorus, where it show a lot of promise around the scream sentence, but, in my mind, fails to deliver, so to say. Again, maybe I could have done more helping the transition of energy ... for this particular part, I guess, I've mixed the tracks and not the song ...

Another issue with this song is the drum recording. They are so poor that they just kill the energy. I guess the only fix here is samples ...

[FytaKyte]

Hey Krabbe,  I agree - this is a very cool song, and the vocal performance is excellent.  Your mix has some cool things about it. I especially like that little transition effect (filter sweep?) into the first chorus... I may have to borrow that one for my own use sometime ?.  I think I can hear your intention in this mix to really make the choruses "arrive", but I think there are some technical issues you need to deal with first.

The #1 thing I hear is congestion in the mids and low mids of mix elements.  That 200 - 400 area really needs cleaning up on the individual elements before you can start bringing out the punch and sparkle.  Once you clear that out in the drums, bass and guitars, you'll have much more room to give the vocal centre stage and to "breathe".

The second thing I can hear is very obvious compression working.  It is happening on the whole mix, but also on the lead vocal.  I have nothing against compression - I love it, in fact!  However, while most listeners describe this phenomenon as "over-compression", I don't believe that is an accurate description.  It's not simply a matter of the amount of gain reduction happening.  Even 3dB of gain reduction can sound bad if the attack and release settings are not suited to the material they are compressing. 

I think that might be the issue here, especially with the vocal.  I can hear the initial attack on some words jumping out for a millisecond, and the the compressor really clamps down.  Maybe experiment with slower attack and faster release settings to get a bit more of a natural feel to the compression.

On you drum and mix buss compression again, try experimenting with slower attack times.  That can help the transients of the drums come through without being blunted so much, and give a more dynamic feel to the mix.

Lastly, having mixed the song myself (albeit a long time ago), I don't remember the drums giving much trouble. Granted, it may not be the greatest drum recording in the world, but I have heard much, much worse.  In fact, I would venture to say, compared to many home recordings, this is not bad... and the energy of the drum performance is killer IMO.  I'm sure, as a live sound engineer, you have had to deal with less than stellar sources on more than one occasion.  ?  You just make it work!

[Krabbe]

Hey Krabbe,  I agree - this is a very cool song, and the vocal performance is excellent.  Your mix has some cool things about it. I especially like that little transition effect (filter sweep?) into the first chorus... I may have to borrow that one for my own use sometime ?.  I think I can hear your intention in this mix to really make the choruses "arrive", but I think there are some technical issues you need to deal with first.

The #1 thing I hear is congestion in the mids and low mids of mix elements.  That 200 - 400 area really needs cleaning up on the individual elements before you can start bringing out the punch and sparkle.  Once you clear that out in the drums, bass and guitars, you'll have much more room to give the vocal centre stage and to "breathe".

The second thing I can hear is very obvious compression working.  It is happening on the whole mix, but also on the lead vocal.  I have nothing against compression - I love it, in fact!  However, while most listeners describe this phenomenon as "over-compression", I don't believe that is an accurate description.  It's not simply a matter of the amount of gain reduction happening.  Even 3dB of gain reduction can sound bad if the attack and release settings are not suited to the material they are compressing. 

I think that might be the issue here, especially with the vocal.  I can hear the initial attack on some words jumping out for a millisecond, and the the compressor really clamps down.  Maybe experiment with slower attack and faster release settings to get a bit more of a natural feel to the compression.

On you drum and mix buss compression again, try experimenting with slower attack times.  That can help the transients of the drums come through without being blunted so much, and give a more dynamic feel to the mix.

Lastly, having mixed the song myself (albeit a long time ago), I don't remember the drums giving much trouble. Granted, it may not be the greatest drum recording in the world, but I have heard much, much worse.  In fact, I would venture to say, compared to many home recordings, this is not bad... and the energy of the drum performance is killer IMO.  I'm sure, as a live sound engineer, you have had to deal with less than stellar sources on more than one occasion.  ?  You just make it work!

Thank you for your time and your input. I really appreciate you taking your time.

About the 200-400, I've added wide guitar busses an octave down in the chorus to make the arrangement breathe more, because I felt there weren't these "natural breathing elements" in the arrangement. I admit, I was a test to see, if this was a path to follow here on out, because I experience a lot of ... "uncomplete" arrangements. 

The compression on the vocal is cause be a compressor with fast attack to make my main vox comp, LA-2A, work more effeciently. Obviously, the fast-attack-comp has been too aggressive.

The drum comps are API2500 with the slowest attack settings, so maybe I should find a drum comp with slower attack option. Any suggestions?

Live sound is way more forgiving, because when the moment's pasted it's gone. On record you can go back an listen again and again. Obviously, in live it has to work, however, the "requirements" are ... different than with recorded audio. 

Again, thank you for your feedback. I see your points and I agree with you.

Cheers

[Roy]

I've been using the API 2500 on drum buss lately. I may vary it but it's almost never slower than 1ms. Often it's at .03ms. If I use a '76 it's set to the slowest attack, which on a '76 is 1ms.
The 30ms setting on the API seems slow to me but whatever works. Just providing perspective.

Edit: The Drum bus often doesn't have the kick going through it. That goes to a separate Kick/Bass bus that has a pretty slow attack (like 100ms) but that's to gel.

[FytaKyte]

About the 200-400, I've added wide guitar busses an octave down in the chorus to make the arrangement breathe more, because I felt there weren't these "natural breathing elements" in the arrangement. I admit, I was a test to see, if this was a path to follow here on out, because I experience a lot of ... "uncomplete" arrangements. 

The drum comps are API2500 with the slowest attack settings, so maybe I should find a drum comp with slower attack option. Any suggestions?

The octave down thing would explain the low mid congestion. The guitars on this mix were already very muddy sounding, so I think that might be exacerbating the issue.  I'd suggest looking into vocal ambience - mainly delays - as a way to help the chorus "arrive" better

Regarding the drums, could it be possible that the transients are being blunted later in the signal path - perhaps at the master buss comp and/or limiter?

[mikej]

Hi!

Haven't attempted this track yet but I did check out your mix. Yeah I agree it's a cool track. That filter sweep thing works really well, kind of like an awesome wah-wah pedal swell or something. Pretty creative mix overall, with lots going on. It does sound like you're having to fight the tracks a bit though. (I've no idea what the raw tracks are like).

Yeah I feel there might be too much bus compression or something like that going on - hard for me to tell what's going on, but it feels a touch flat-ish or something? I think you can maybe spread things out a touch more panning wise also perhaps? Might give a bit of room for the vocal.

Not sure if it's the headphones I'm currently listening on (bit late/early for monitors here), but I felt it worked a bit better with a couple of db at 800Hz and also 2k-ish for a bit of definition there in the guitar and vocal?

I hope you'll be having a go at a v2? I feel you're on to something here anyway. Not sure if my comments will help your mix or not, but I wanted to give you some encouragement anyway.

Cheers!

[Krabbe]

About the 200-400, I've added wide guitar busses an octave down in the chorus to make the arrangement breathe more, because I felt there weren't these "natural breathing elements" in the arrangement. I admit, I was a test to see, if this was a path to follow here on out, because I experience a lot of ... "uncomplete" arrangements. 

The drum comps are API2500 with the slowest attack settings, so maybe I should find a drum comp with slower attack option. Any suggestions?

The octave down thing would explain the low mid congestion. The guitars on this mix were already very muddy sounding, so I think that might be exacerbating the issue.  I'd suggest looking into vocal ambience - mainly delays - as a way to help the chorus "arrive" better

Regarding the drums, could it be possible that the transients are being blunted later in the signal path - perhaps at the master buss comp and/or limiter?

I agree that the key to making the chorus arrive is the vocals, which is what I will be focusing my attention on.

Usually I wouldn't suspect nor the drum bus (max -2dB) or the limiter (max -2dB) to cause issues. However, it's obvious that something's not "quite there", why everything is up for grabs.

I appreciate your input, and I will most definitely this keep it in mind, when I have another go at this.

Cheers