The Long Wait - Lookout Mountain

[mikej]

Hi,

My mix.  Comments welcome.

Cheers!

Update: Added mix 1.1.

No mix changes. I realised I used too high a ratio on mixbus compressor.  Should hopefully sound a touch more open and dynamic.

[Roy]

Here are my comments since you asked and I’m lovely:
-I quite like the color blue. Most hues.
The first guitar being slightly panned left bothers me. But that is probably just me.
-The vocal feels a bit ‘nasal’ and ‘pinched’ like there’s some phase cancellation. I don’t know the track or if it would even be possible but that’s what I think of when I think of the overall tone. The harmony vocal has the same quality and exasperates the effect. It’s in the same range as the acoustics.
-I don’t think it’s your fault but that downbeat when the drums come in is frighteningly off and makes me want to kill a baby but not in a good way.
-I hate the color Teal though. Too much green.
-I’m not sure, I’m live typing this and the snare feels ‘nasal’ and small and I’m not sure if it’s just that frequency range or if it’s something else. Is there some shared effect that isn’t 100% wet or something?
-@2:50 or so, what some might call the bridge but I hate to be cliche, the vocals feel better for some reason. It might just be how she’s singing.
-I want more bass guitar. Maybe to balance the midrange quality.
-I do like aqua though (No Barbie Girl jokes, this is serious). is that related to teal? It’s so subjective.
-I’ve found the song to be a bit boring. I think partially the arrangement and rather pedestrian playing but also because I couldn’t engage with the vocals. This is one of those times when a mixer could really help make a song better.

Sorry if that was too critical. I just really am not a fan of teal.

[Roy]

I just downloaded the track. That rhythm holocaust that occurs when the band comes in is (mostly) the bassist's fault. They often implore me to commit infanticide. I rarely listen.

[mikej]

Here are my comments since you asked and I’m lovely:

Subjective.  (Do I delete all the mixes I have uploaded now, or wait until a bit later  ).

-I quite like the color blue. Most hues.

I colour my drum tracks blue.  And my replies it would seem today.  My drum channels are more cyan though, I suppose.

The first guitar being slightly panned left bothers me. But that is probably just me.

Sorry.  Where should it be panned exactly?  I wanted to balance it in the stereo field with the other guitar.  Should I have panned everything to the center? Mixed it in mono? Gone for full left?  Pan the two mics on each guitar hard left and right, for both guitars? Or do I need to raise the volume of the other guitar a bit?

-The vocal feels a bit ‘nasal’ and ‘pinched’ like there’s some phase cancellation. I don’t know the track or if it would even be possible but that’s what I think of when I think of the overall tone. The harmony vocal has the same quality and exasperates the effect. It’s in the same range as the acoustics.

Could be some phase cancellation with the vocal double I suppose...  Do I need to carve out some freqs in the acoustics to make some  room for the vocal?  I did notch out a couple of frequencies in the vocal that bothered me, possibly too wide...   I will have to check.  I suppose I thought it sounded ok....  

-I don’t think it’s your fault but that downbeat when the drums come in is frighteningly off and makes me want to [redacted] but not in a good way.

I suggest that you need to seek urgent professional help for those thoughts.  Maybe edit your post, at the very least, perhaps?

-I hate the color Teal though. Too much green.

Subjective, but ok. (I think the amount of green in other shades of blue might surprise you though).  

-I’m not sure, I’m live typing this and the snare feels ‘nasal’ and small and I’m not sure if it’s just that frequency range or if it’s something else. Is there some shared effect that isn’t 100% wet or something?

No shared effect.  Maybe I've highpassed the snare bit high, gated it a bit too much, and added too much, I dunno can't remember, 2-4k ish or something.  Maybe flipping the phase might help too...  I think I initially flipped it, then decided to change it back later on.   I'll try a few things I guess.

-@2:50 or so, what some might call the bridge but I hate to be cliche, the vocals feel better for some reason. It might just be how she’s singing.

Obviously I had not noticed this, or I would have made the vocals feel better for the whole track... Might be some overdubs or a comp perhaps?

-I want more bass guitar. Maybe to balance the midrange quality.

Oh.  I thought the bass level was ok? I guess I should reach over and switch the sub on occasionally...

-I do like aqua though (No Barbie Girl jokes, this is serious). is that related to teal? It’s so subjective.

Ah that Acqua.  Barbie Girl.  Yeah really nice chords from the synth strings in the intro, and that great M1-ish piano.  I think the guitar might be panned slightly to the right?  It's a good mix, and a well crafted track.  Catchy.  Clever writing.

-I’ve found the song to be a bit boring. I think partially the arrangement and rather pedestrian playing but also because I couldn’t engage with the vocals. This is one of those times when a mixer could really help make a song better.

Thought you would feel that way.  I think I felt the reference mix was a bit too reverby perhaps... Maybe though I need to add some more reverb and more compression or something?  Any suggestions for stuff to listen to, that might help me out in this regard, aside from Aqua?


Sorry if that was too critical. I just really am not a fan of teal.

Ok, I will delete all my mixes now...

Thanks .

[Roy]

I've been listening to this song for a while now. And I keep paring parts away. It's just not a great song/arrangement. I can't post a reference version in this new forum format. Lucky you. But really it just needs the 1st ac guitar and bass. Maybe the bgvs.

Going down the list,
I generally go with purple.
Yeah. I think the main acoustic should be centered. The other one doesn't add much and is more support as opposed to contrast so stereo balance doesn't need to be maintained.
The nasal qualities are mostly the recording and vocal itself. It was just a pain to work with. As always though get the vocal sounding good and
everything else should support or come second. Or be deleted.
No editing. That reference to infanticide was mostly a joke.
I can't see the issues I had as being phase issues but it was just the same impression I got. It's an upper midrange song.
The 'bass' level is ok. The general support it adds works. But the notes or whatever seems to missing.
I miss the M1. It was a beast back in the day.

This song needs so little. It's one of those examples where adding more never helps. The drums are just kinda there. The 2nd ac gtr is pretty much the same as the 1st. Same with the other vocals. Anyway. Mix the song, not the tracks. That's deeper than people realize. Sorry I did not sleep well last night and I'm punchy. Maybe you're right feel is ok.

Just delete the prime numbered mixes.

[mikej]

- Purple? Whatever... .

- I dunno, I feel there is some nice interplay between the guitars, hence my choice.
- Snare - I think it's mostly the low cut and maybe too short release on the gate cutting the ambience off too much. I do seem to have a problem with snares though for some reason.
- Bass - I thought it popped out ok at points, but I didn't automate it so maybe there's some interest that I've missed. I'll take a look at it anyway.
- Remarkably my M1 vsti just had a suprise update. The GUI is now resizeable! Ham fisted 7ths and 909 kicks all round! Honestly, if I could only have one vsti, it would be the M1.
- Just the prime numbered mixes? Interesting, I have not gone into such detailed analysis. I hadn't noticed there was any particular pattern to my mixes that suck... I thought it was a more general thing .

Yeah - I might agree with the drums, but not the 2nd guitar. I get what you mean regarding mixing the song though. I dunno, I quite the vocal delivery style.

I do generally feel that I am missing the mark by miles with regard to making things more exciting and interesting to listen to, or something like that. I am probably being a bit shy, and less instinctive perhaps? I dunno. I feel that I have, previously, generally been over doing it with eq, reverb and effects and am probably being a touch too cautious now perhaps? I always get the feeling that there is *something* I am just not getting, hence asking for other refs, etc...

Cheers!

[Roy]

-Fair enough. I can't argue that.
-Maybe. I'd have to listen again. I've come to the conclusion that personally I tend to cut too many lows from the snare. And I hate gates, I never trust them (not racist) but I think that's my analog background. I do think that the snare is still right in the same frequency world as the acoustics and vocal.
-I've found the bass the second or third most interesting part in the song. It's not even what's played, it just seems do do something nothing else in the song does.
-I remember when the M1 was new. I'm old.
-Yes Prime Numbers. I think i'm just being "Eno" about this. I can't remember the name of his cards. Pretend I referred to them properly and came off cool.

In the end, fair enough. I don't mean to fight but debate and inspire. If you like something then great! Follow that path.

I get what you're saying about mixes. I can only say let the song communicate what it wants to and think like a listener. Don't think of effects or anything. Just think of the parts. I know that's bs. I had to pee and needed to type something quickly. Though it's not totally wrong.

[mikej]

I do get what you mean. I do usually have some sort of vision in mind of where I want to get to, and then try to get it with whatever.
Yeah, I do kind of miss the frequency clash of the snare with the vocals. Possibly because of it's transient nature, and the fact I have heard the vocals a milion times already or something.

For the record I find your posts hit the mark, regarding debate and inspiration. I understand your perspective with the guitars, having checked out your mix. As you say, for debate, I have to put across my thoughts too. I don't think of your comments as fighting at all.

What is being Eno?

Some sort of oblique airport music or something? .

Cheers!

[Roy]

I hear what you're saying and you're probably right. But also think about what vision the artist had in mind. That's sometimes harder. Artists can be jerks.

Oblique strategies. That was the set of cards Brian Eno used in the studio. At least, apocryphally. There used to be an app.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies

Always put your thoughts across. I'm just presenting what I think. I do have a surprising amount of relative experience so I may press and maybe too much. But anyone from beginner to [insert name you your favorite mixer here] can and should voice what moves them. If someone said I never mixed before but I love the banjo then...bad example banjos are terrible. But if someone said they loved the guitars or whatever then they're obvious seeing something important. As long as it's not a banjo what moves them is important and we should keep that in mind.

[mikej]

Ok, just uploaded a version with a minor mix bus compressor change, as I realise I forgot so change some settings back whilst experimenting... I think it sounds much better now anyway. I've not made any other changes as such.

Yeah I am aware of Oblique Strategies. Very insightful and inspired solution to deal with the artistic struggle, especially for, what, 1970-75? Music for Airports is the only Eno album I am familiar with really though. Should correct that really perhaps. Way ahead of his time.

Anyway, personally I don't feel you press to much. As I have mentioned before, you always seem to put your thoughts across well and are happy to discuss ideas and things a bit.

The impression I get is that you are always looking to make appropriate suggestions to help people to get their mixes to whatever the next level might be (from where they are currently at) I think. Oh, and to also consider how you can make mixes a bit more exciting for the listener and go beyond just a straight eq and volume balance - however competent that may be. Your comments and thoughts have certainly been helping me out a tremendous amount anyway.

Like with this mix, I feel you are showing me that it is important to really figure out and understand what the essence of a song might be. To find the interesting parts, the key elements, the supporting parts, and to go from there.

I think that you are right that it is maybe too easy to just rush off and mix what is in the files, without properly understanding what is in front of you, so to speak.

From various interviews and things I read, I get that this is a skill most of the top mixers seem to have. The ability to be able to pull things apart and get down to the essentials of what makes a song great, then build it back up and present it in it's best light.

Or something.... .

Cheers!