Symphony of Silence - TCF mix1

[fehling89]

Hi everyone,
- This site is absolutely WONDERFUL. So helpful! I just joined and am blown away. So grateful and am already learning a lot.
- The Magician’s Nephews boys are so talented. Many thanks to them and Mike for offering these recordings for learning purposes.

Mike’s Final Mix
1) It’s outstanding. For the life of me, I can’t figure out how he got the guitars to sound the way they do. They sound bright and rich, but not fizzy. Is he subtracting frequencies? Or adding them? Or a combo ...?

2) And he also creates this incredible stereo imaging. It’s almost like the mix is giving you a nice big hug. The guitars are so wide, while simultaneously feeling glued together cohesively. I have no idea how he’s doing that. I’ve tried iZotope’s Stereo Imaging in my Mastering chain as a final step, but I can’t tell if it’s helping or not.

Here’s my first mix
3) I’m still confused how Mastering Engineers get final mixes to sound so loud (while maintaining clarity. Especially on the snare drum). Are they boosting gain by 10dB ?? Or is it not that at all, and it’s up to the Mixing Engineer to get it as loud as possible w/o clipping? The steps I usually follow are: get the mix sitting around -5 dB > attach bus compressor > EQ > multiband > stereo imaging > tape saturation > limiter.

4) I like the clarity I achieve, but it sounds kinda lifeless, thin, and stagnant. Lacks that nice touch to make it sound full and finished. Can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong.

Notes
- I didn’t Master much, so the track is a little quiet. I just attached a UAD Fairchild 670 Legacy bus compressor on the chain so far.
- Tools I’ve been using and have access to: UAD’s LA-2A, 1176LN and SE, 610-B, Pultec Pro Legacy, Helios 69, Fairchild 670 Legacy, iZotope 5 Mastering suite. I mix in Logic Pro X.

Timothy

[Mike Senior]

Hi Timothy,

Thanks for the kind words about my recording and mix -- glad you're liking the site. Funnily enough, I might actually be able to upload my Reaper project for this track, so you can check out all my mix settings. Probably won't be able to sort that out this month, but I'll see if I can get it sorted out in May...

Cheers,

Mike S.

[mikej]

Hi!

First off, not a bad mix.

I saw your post and had some immediate thoughts that may or may not be of help. These are all things I have been thinking about and trying recently.

I too have similar questions regarding the Mike S mix. It would be really amazing to be able to check out the actual session!

Master bus chain:

Try removing the multiband, stereo imager and tape saturation. The multiband and tape saturation may be changing the frequency and dynamic balance of your mix too much. They might also be absorbing a lot of your mix dynamics and punch.

The tape saturation might help getting things a bit more mid focussed though, and could be the icing on the cake, but sometimes a mix is better without. They tend to change the overall eq of a mix, and sometimes the change is not beneficial. You might find you get a better result with just compressor > eq > limiter.

I would maybe try putting the width enhancement after the tape saturation, rather than before, if you are going to use it.

Regarding loudness and clarity:

I have a feeling that a lot of this is down to the instrument balance. Check the instrument and frequency balance of Mike's mix. The distorted vox, and general balance of the instruments in the mix is geared toward giving the impression of loudness. I think there is probably less low end in his mix than it appears which enables the mix to get loud and clear. Too much low end also means you probably won't be able to hit the limiter as hard.

Compare the low end and level of each instrument to your mix - it might give you some clues. The snare is quite prominent in his mix too I think compared to the kick, cymbals and vocals?

I think you could maybe add a touch more punch to the snare in your mix with that 1176?

I can't offer any guidance for the guitars though really. I am thinking it might just be panning, eq, and a touch of reverb. Possibly some tape saturation or something too perhaps? If you pan the guitars to like 80% or something they sound pretty wide I think?

Anyway, you raised some interesting questions and I wanted to at least try and keep the conversation going a bit. Maybe others will be able to offer you some further insight, especially with regard to the guitars.

Cheers!

[fehling89]

Hi Mike and Mike, thank you for the replies! I didn't see this response until just now, but just finished up a mix2 that I'm about to post.

I've learned a lot in the past few days, about both mixing and mastering.
- For mixing, I learned to start from scratch and take a visual approach with it. What's the overall experience/space you want your listeners to enjoy?
- For mastering, I THINK I understand what folks are doing now. I'm not entirely sure what professional mastering engineers are doing, but here's my best guess, and this is what I did on mix2 (granted, approaching your mix is slightly different IF you are also Mastering the track, of course!): Got my mix sitting around -6dB overall > applied bus compressor and ensured it stayed around -6dB > subtractive EQ > stereo imaging > ensure that it's not going louder than -1dB > then apply limiter (using the gain boost to taste).

I'm very happy with my new mix2, particularly the clarity I'm achieving.

For Mastering tone, I tried a bunch of miscellaneous stuff like Bass-harmonic-enhancer stuff, Voxengo tube amp, Voxengo MSED, Multiband, and Boz Little Clipper...but ultimately realized this is POINTLESS to attach to your mastering IF you are in charge of the mixing too. At least imo. I'd rather try to make the mix perfect.

And for Mastering overall volume, I just started a trial of the FabFilter L-2 Pro and it is SO COOL. I love the Loudness guide on the right regarding the LUFS. I started by cranking my mix, but ultimately brought it down 5dB because I found this awesome site: https://www.loudnesspenalty.com/

Thanks again for reply and critique, mikej! Mike S, that would be awesome to see what kinds of things you did.

[fehling89]

Mix v2

[Quathamer]

Good mix mate,

Yeah, I hear what you're saying about mastering, but don't stop yourself from treating the master. That been said, I don't do a lot to my master either, but I certainly don't do nothing to it. I'll put a bus comp and a tape on it, but I still feel that those two things do a lot to shape what I'm looking for. Oh and the trusty FF L2 which is the industry standard in final limiters.

And totally agree with you about loudness, but loudness is not important as dynamic transparency, but that is almost exclusively up to your ear.

[mikej]

Hi,

Yes good points. Ultimately no one will really know what processing you do, and as some famous mixer says the only thing that matters is what comes out the speakers. Regarding loudness I think I recall the ref mix hits around -5 LUFS!

I felt the main riff guitars sound pretty close to the ref in your 2nd mix. I feel the snare could come up a touch and the vox down a touch perhaps for my taste? But yeah, it's a decent mix I think.

For a bit of fun:

My starting guess for the main riff guitars in Mike Senior's mix is Reaper ReaEQ High + Low Pass, followed by Stillwell vibeEQ. Something like gentle low shelf at 220, 1.2k boost, decent 315 cut. Maybe touch of high shelf. Blended with the Bass Amp for the low end. To my ears panned 80% L&R. With some short plate reverb or something?

Edit: I think the wide/tubey type sound is some stereo harmonizer type thing on a send. Micro pitch shift, waves doubler sort of thing?

What's your guess?

Cheers!

[mikej]

Hi!

Many thanks for posting your Reaper session Mike Senior!

So I do see a little of the vibe-eq in there for the main riff.. With a touch of 1.2k. Bit of Msed for widening... Amplitube distorted slap delay, and parallel distortion from Fabfilter Saturn.

Couple of other interesting things also - both Rocket and The Glue on the drum bus, and also the sends that go to, and also past, the bus comp. Oh and the eq on the drum parts is quite interesting too .

Cheers!