Help needed

[mikej]

Excellent post.

[Krabbe]

A good mix IS more than balancing and tasteful choices, I absolutelty agree. A good mix begings with the artist; what's the technical level of the musicians (obviously, not all guitarist has to have the ability John Petrucci and so on, but a certain technical level IS required), do the musicians know their gear (an I mean on a more advanced level than: "This knob is has to be at 4, this at 7 and so on - he, or she, has to have detailed knowledge, what happens is I change stringe gauge, what happens if I lower the tuning with half a note on the batter skin etc etc), knowlegde of artistic expression (we just wanna sound exactly like Motörhead, isn't knowledge of artisitic expression, more the opposite, I would say). Basically, the higher level of skill and awareness equals a higher chance of getting a beyond-this-world-result. The more the band knows before hand, the better are their chances for finding the exact right mixer and producer, because they know exactely where they are going and why. Obviously economy has a say, but ... yeah, either you do it all the way or you don't, there's no law against a savings account

As well of the band, the recording quality has a huge say in terms of a good mix. Is it gear of a cetain quality, is the recording surroundings appropriate, are the recording engineer capable and so on.

You say that you want the mix engineer to breathe life into the mix e.g. by accentuating certain things. I party disagree. Obvioulsy the snare ghosts and guitar #7's subltle figues between bar 78 and 81 shouldn't be buried in the mix. BUT, if the drummer misses half his ghosts due to lack of ability, I would say that it isn't the mix engineer's task to fix that. That is something for the drummer, and perhaps a drum teacher. The same with the guitar sound. If the recording gear, surroundings and the recording engineer is all great, and the recorded sound still isn't what the guitarist want, then I suggest that he/she learns how to use his/her amp settings instead of wasting other people's time. Obviously there are some differences between reality and recorded reality, and this is where the mix engineer earns his money. Ont the other hand, if the gear's not well, the surroundings not great or the recording engineer has hang over, then there's only one way, a do-over.

To me, the job of the mix engineer is to be as least invervening as possible. Basically, the more the mix engineer has to intervene, the higher the risk of failure. Obviously there are some things that he/she has to do, but especially in terms of recitying, he/she should keep his/hers hands in his/hers pockets as much as possible ... that's a lot of he/she/his/hers ;D

A thing that I miss in the forum is the dialogue. Recording the unknown isn't a problem, becuase you've got the preliminary dialogue; who are you, who am I, what do you like, what do I like, what's the intented target and so on. We all come from different places, gegraphically as well as cuturally, so we have diffenrent takes. Working with live music, I deal a bit with speakers, and there are differencies. I know that germans aren't as keen on the air-ish HF-frequencies as the french, which is reflected in their respective speaker designs. Transfering that to this means that a ductch mix engineer might have a totally different set of tonal preferences compared to an american, in the same what that there are certain sound dogmas in different genres (I doubt that Carter Beauford would be very pleased with the sound of Lars Ulrich's kick and visa versa).

To wrap it up, the good mix is a result of the synergy between the artist, the recording engineer, the mix engineer and the mastering engineer. Here, we are quite a lot of people and ... we are all in different places, so of course you are not gonna find the "good mix" here. Obviously, there will be mixes that suits you better than others, but, and I guess that's my main point, a "good mix" is very subjective. You've laid out what you think is a good mix and I've laid out, what I think, and we are not really close to each other, are we?

Nice discussion. I'm with Roy on this one - you have to get the basics right before trying stuff from the mixers toolbox. That's Balance, Panning, and - at least for me - automation. There are a lot of static mixes on this forum where you clearly hear that the person who did the mix didn't really listen to the tracks before mixing them.

Sure, not every song has tons of musical details or small little technical highlights that you can put into the spotlight to create more excitement. Nevertheless, you can still make sure that e.g. special accents on the hihat are audible, instead of just pulling up the fader for the hihat and ignoring it completely for the rest of the mix. After listening to almost all of the Darkride mixes, this is what I noticed most. So a good mix for me is more than just good balance and tasteful choices - you also need to breathe some life into the damn thing

[Roy]

I feel bad. I feel like I started an unintentional debate while I was in a bad mood. Though I did precisely to start a discourse, of course but I did it poorly.

Obviously a good mix is "more than balancing and tasteful choices". A good mix does start with the band, instruments, gear, recording, mood, etc. But, as a mixer, I have no control over. Nor do I care. I cook with the ingredients given and people judge the meal and chef and not the farm the carrots came from. And as a chef I can't ever say sorry this meal isn't great but the guy who normally sends me chickens....

And that's the fun of mixing. Compensating. And knowing how to do so best. It might be parallel compression (it's built into my template) or heavy eq-ing or scrolling through the list of plug-ins and trying to find something that works in a specific instance. Or knowing to do nothing at all. I've been this for a while off and on and I'm still learning. And it's not from the great recordings. It's from the times I'm like...."Well I could try this vocoder and ring mod and ....." to get something to "sound good". And its stuff I can apply to good recordings as well. It's all just playing an instrument. I can learn how to finger a chord (don't laugh) playing "Fur Elise" that I can apply to "Rhapsody in Blue"

I'll disagree a bit. A mixer has to do what's best for the song. It could be throwing all the faders up and thinking it's right or massaging every track and part to create something. As a kid with my walkman listening to whatever was on the radio (get off my lawn) I absolutely waited for something that moved me in bar 78. Every time. It's partially because bar 78 had a cool part and partially because the rest of the mix held my attention until then.

I do agree that ultimately this site lacks dialog and discussion. We're a bit too keen on not making enemies (though I have) or trying to be too disparaging or whatever and having to analyze one's reply against who one is replying to etc. Some people get defensive and it makes discussions difficult (Like I did! Apologies). I do love when someone comments on my mixes, positive or negative (mostly) especially from a beginner (just speaking in general and not towards anyone in this thread) because they're unencumbered with numbers and techniques and plug-ins. They just speak from the hip. I try to do so as well. I've liked 'bad' mixes on this site and panned 'good' mixes because of how they ultimately made me feel.

And frankly, sometimes I get lazy. I do want to reply to a bunch of posts but I just can't summon the energy so I just do a few. And then someone feels slighted.

I do wish there was a general mixing thread where people can discuss things without a specific song or at least a specific mix where it's all against one. I've had the idea of making a bad mix thread of a song that might stimulate discussion. There probably wouldn't be much traffic though. I'd have to create a sock account because I tend to rub people the wrong way.

Sorry to rant and if this is off topic. I just woke up and still working on my coffee and might be violently hung over. I'm still deciding.

Anyway, this is a touching funeral. I didn't know there was a Minions branded casket. You know what, that $2.75 for Starbucks you owe me from last week? It's on me.

No need to get up, I'll see myself out.

[Blitzzz]

When I was still mixing quite a lot, there were some very dedicated people here in the forum with whom I had a very relaxed and friendly exchange. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many of them for a long time, but some new people showed up that are very kind and helpful (Shuul for example)

It's quite normal that you don't always agree with everyone when it comes to mixing. It's all about personal preferences, and they vary from person to person. I like productions where the mixer has the guts to do something fresh, even drastic, to catch my ears, but at the same time respects the sound of the band. Of course this is a very fine line and only works if you communicate with the band. And I love to discover small details in songs over months and years, so as a mixer, I´m always looking for small things in a song that you can put in the spotlight for a short moment.

As far as the Darkride songs are concerned, I've been over-critical in the last months, but I always try to be friendly, even if the criticism is very harsh. Nobody was paid to mix these songs, people do it voluntarily. Nevertheless, I can only give feedback from the artist's point of view and if I don't like something, I write it. Some people can't cope with it, and I am sorry for that.

And I just found this little gem while writing this comment

[Krabbe]

I like your food-production-analogy. You are correct, you don't hear the chef using the quality of ingredients as an excuse. You do, however, hear him bitch about it

I do agree that you have to cook with whatever's in the fridge and make a fine meal out of it. For me, I prefer to fill my frigde with ... maybe not foie gras and black truffle, but stuff of a decent quality and then cook with that. It has it's obvious down sides, but ... well, it's working for me.

I genuinely believe that the single stroke of genius in bar 78 should come from the artist and not the mixer. Of course, the mixer should be able to honor this in a proper way, but it starts with the band. I have a producer type in my network, who's also a crazy talented musician. More often than not does he choose to re-record an instrument, where he plays, because the guitarist played a bad note in a solo, the drummer missed a ghost or the bass player wasn't consistent enough. He does it so well that even the bands themselves can't tell the difference. I acutally don't believe that any of them are aware of it. My point being, a mixer can do a whole lot of magic in whatever DAW they're using, and obviously you have to do what's best for any given song, but where's the line? For me that line is the recording, because what's on the tape, can I only assume, is ... ehm, the boundries for the artist's abilities. Would it be "etichally correct" for a mix engineer to make the band sound better than they acutally do?

I feel bad. I feel like I started an unintentional debate while I was in a bad mood. Though I did precisely to start a discourse, of course but I did it poorly.

Obviously a good mix is "more than balancing and tasteful choices". A good mix does start with the band, instruments, gear, recording, mood, etc. But, as a mixer, I have no control over. Nor do I care. I cook with the ingredients given and people judge the meal and chef and not the farm the carrots came from. And as a chef I can't ever say sorry this meal isn't great but the guy who normally sends me chickens....

And that's the fun of mixing. Compensating. And knowing how to do so best. It might be parallel compression (it's built into my template) or heavy eq-ing or scrolling through the list of plug-ins and trying to find something that works in a specific instance. Or knowing to do nothing at all. I've been this for a while off and on and I'm still learning. And it's not from the great recordings. It's from the times I'm like...."Well I could try this vocoder and ring mod and ....." to get something to "sound good". And its stuff I can apply to good recordings as well. It's all just playing an instrument. I can learn how to finger a chord (don't laugh) playing "Fur Elise" that I can apply to "Rhapsody in Blue"

I'll disagree a bit. A mixer has to do what's best for the song. It could be throwing all the faders up and thinking it's right or massaging every track and part to create something. As a kid with my walkman listening to whatever was on the radio (get off my lawn) I absolutely waited for something that moved me in bar 78. Every time. It's partially because bar 78 had a cool part and partially because the rest of the mix held my attention until then.

I do agree that ultimately this site lacks dialog and discussion. We're a bit too keen on not making enemies (though I have) or trying to be too disparaging or whatever and having to analyze one's reply against who one is replying to etc. Some people get defensive and it makes discussions difficult (Like I did! Apologies). I do love when someone comments on my mixes, positive or negative (mostly) especially from a beginner (just speaking in general and not towards anyone in this thread) because they're unencumbered with numbers and techniques and plug-ins. They just speak from the hip. I try to do so as well. I've liked 'bad' mixes on this site and panned 'good' mixes because of how they ultimately made me feel.

And frankly, sometimes I get lazy. I do want to reply to a bunch of posts but I just can't summon the energy so I just do a few. And then someone feels slighted.

I do wish there was a general mixing thread where people can discuss things without a specific song or at least a specific mix where it's all against one. I've had the idea of making a bad mix thread of a song that might stimulate discussion. There probably wouldn't be much traffic though. I'd have to create a sock account because I tend to rub people the wrong way.

Sorry to rant and if this is off topic. I just woke up and still working on my coffee and might be violently hung over. I'm still deciding.

Anyway, this is a touching funeral. I didn't know there was a Minions branded casket. You know what, that $2.75 for Starbucks you owe me from last week? It's on me.

No need to get up, I'll see myself out.

[Krabbe]

First off, over-critical isn't a bad thing. I think it is fantastic that you, as an artist, are available in a forum like this, because it opens the communication option, which I really appreciate.

Secondly, I too love, what I call "onion songs". They show that the artist really knew what they were doing. I am puporsely not mentioning the mix engineer, because in my world, his role isn't that big.Essentially it is:"Do not fuck this up".

I like productions where the bands has the guts and ability to shine Obviously the mixer should be able to honor that properly, but it starts with the band. Then, of course, there are some mixing things I prefer to hear in a mix, but it isn't was keeps me in, so to speak. A masterpiece is still a masterpiece, regardless of production. E.g. I enjoy the production on Guns N' Roses' "Appetite for Destruction", the snare drum in particular, but that's not why I love that record, it's because the material on tape is, in my opinion, brilliant. F**k production, in my world musical craftmanship beats production at any day. Today a lot of engineers seem to think that they are the true VIPs and the bands are a necessary evil. I like to think the exact opposite. My finest task is to make an exact reproduction of the band's sound. In here all I have is the tracks, so I always use those as my guideline. I reckon, if there are bits and pieces, a band would like to have special focus on, then it would appear obvious in their arrangement and therefore also obvious on the tracks.

And yeah, there are a lot of shitty mixes floading around, my own included. Some are shitty because the mixer haven't got the fundamentals in order and others are shitty because they don't match my taste. And then there are some, which I just don't like even though everything seems to be in order. The same goes with you, I guess. When I mix something from here, I usually use an association song in the same genre and aim for that. I think more in whole concepts rather than in bits and pieces, which mainly is due to unsufficient knowledge for my part.

When I was still mixing quite a lot, there were some very dedicated people here in the forum with whom I had a very relaxed and friendly exchange. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many of them for a long time, but some new people showed up that are very kind and helpful (Shuul for example)

It's quite normal that you don't always agree with everyone when it comes to mixing. It's all about personal preferences, and they vary from person to person. I like productions where the mixer has the guts to do something fresh, even drastic, to catch my ears, but at the same time respects the sound of the band. Of course this is a very fine line and only works if you communicate with the band. And I love to discover small details in songs over months and years, so as a mixer, I´m always looking for small things in a song that you can put in the spotlight for a short moment.

As far as the Darkride songs are concerned, I've been over-critical in the last months, but I always try to be friendly, even if the criticism is very harsh. Nobody was paid to mix these songs, people do it voluntarily. Nevertheless, I can only give feedback from the artist's point of view and if I don't like something, I write it. Some people can't cope with it, and I am sorry for that.

And I just found this little gem while writing this comment

[Roy]

I like your food-production-analogy. You are correct, you don't hear the chef using the quality of ingredients as an excuse. You do, however, hear him bitch about it

I do agree that you have to cook with whatever's in the fridge and make a fine meal out of it. For me, I prefer to fill my frigde with ... maybe not foie gras and black truffle, but stuff of a decent quality and then cook with that. It has it's obvious down sides, but ... well, it's working for me.

I genuinely believe that the single stroke of genius in bar 78 should come from the artist and not the mixer. Of course, the mixer should be able to honor this in a proper way, but it starts with the band. I have a producer type in my network, who's also a crazy talented musician. More often than not does he choose to re-record an instrument, where he plays, because the guitarist played a bad note in a solo, the drummer missed a ghost or the bass player wasn't consistent enough. He does it so well that even the bands themselves can't tell the difference. I acutally don't believe that any of them are aware of it. My point being, a mixer can do a whole lot of magic in whatever DAW they're using, and obviously you have to do what's best for any given song, but where's the line? For me that line is the recording, because what's on the tape, can I only assume, is ... ehm, the boundries for the artist's abilities. Would it be "etichally correct" for a mix engineer to make the band sound better than they acutally do?

I get it. In the end your can never mix nor cook out of spite. What may make me a quality engineer or chef (I proclaim neither) is that regardless of what I have to work with you will be satisfied. [no jokes] I'd love quality elements to work with. But that's not the job. Not everything you're given is gold. Time is a factor. Talent is a factor. Budget is a factor. Ego is a factor. Stupidity is a factor. It all distills down to what a mixer has to work with.

Never think a step behind. It's all in the past.

As for the stroke of geniuses, yes it's all from the band (mostly) but it's also on us to know when to high light something that was genius but done in passing. Or is more genius based on the structure of the mix that's been created. I've automated string noise to accentuate some humanity or whatever. It was an affectation of the player but isn't so obvious in the canvas of a mix. So we have to do what we can't to point the listener to it.

A mixer always has to do what's best for the song not the band. Under most circumstances we support both but our ears and fingers and that one time tongue should be on the band. Sorry. We didn't have automation on that mix.

in the end with most of these mixes we have no contact wit the band/artist so we're more lenient with our interpretations. There are tracks where the artist is also a part of the forum and they post some feedback and then that's a tother level of mixing. Adapting to what the artist needs. Or also trying to convince them that they're mistaken. Blitzzz is a clear example of someone who's posted the tracks and has a clear vision. If I did a mix of one of his songs I'd defer to his vision. But not every artist is so clear or knows what they want. Sometimes it's on the mixer to step up and tell them.

Sorry to rant. I think I've digressed. I'll stop for now.

[I lied. I suppose one thing to keep in mind about mixing isn't just the tracks or numbers or frequencies or thresholds. It's maintaining the human aspects. It's knowing what the listener wants and what the artist wants and what all the band wants and what the label wants and all that. That's mixing. Or at least an aspect of it. It's getting a killer snare and a loud mix and great vocals etc. It's not just an artistic decision. If I mixed for art a lot of my mixes would be different. Sorry I might be old and jaded. I'm not a big deal at all and my credits aren't notable but I've done this longer than most.]

[[E2: Also: Always think a step above you not behind. If you're the mixer think like the producer/band/label. Never complain about what you're given. Tracks can be...tricky. But never show that weakness. Everything you mix is gold. Never give an excuse. Because then you're just trying to explain away why you did a bad job. It never matters at the level above. By the point you're mixing there is not other option so disparaging what you're given just (unfortunately) applies to you. If you say it sounds bad because of the tracks you're saying what you're presenting sounds bad. When in doubt, lie. "Here you go, I think I nailed this mix... Make them second guess themselves as opposed to going in assuming it's a bad mix. Honestly, I'll admit to downplaying all of my mixes but that's just depression and anxiety. In reality always tell your listener that they're getting the best. Regardless of any compression technique that's the best advice. If you don't agree than why are you presenting it to them? I get it. Here is the place to question and find some perspective. But with anyone else never let your goddamn guard down.

Cheers!]]

[Krabbe]

I have no response. I think that you are absolutely right about ... well, everything you just said.