23-03-2020, 11:59 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2020, 12:56 PM by Krabbe.)
There's something special about mixing metal
I had some issues getting right feeling into the snare and the guitars, and then there's the question about the vocals. Acctually I would have tucked them more into the mix, but I didn't because ... no one goes home humming the kick drum
The intro is pretty low, which is on purpose, because I wanted to give the impression of getting kicked in the head when the band starts.
I guess, I could have rolled off more mids of the guitars to make more space, but on the other hand, I wanted the guitars to occupy as much space as possible.
Tips, trick and comments are much obliged
Edit v2
I lowered Snare drum level, servere changes on bass channels and raised level to get a firmer low end and I rolled back vocals.
On guitars I did a completely do-over. I've lowered HPF on rhythm guitars and applied one -1dB cut around 5k. The other guitars are HPF'ed at little higher with one to two -1dB cuts. Also, I've added a pinch of opposite reverb to stereo guitars to enhance the overall guitar feeling.
Guitars in general was a struggle because on one hand, I did want to tame them to keep them from drowning out anything else, and on the other hand, I didn't want to kill the energy in the guitars. Also, I still think a little more chug on 'em would've been nice.
I am still challenged by where the vocals should sit in the mix. On one side, I want loud and clear vocals with high intelligibility, and on another side, I don't wan't the vocals to kill the overall energy. Right now I've landed here ...
Edit v3
So, I think I've landed here. I've tried to blend the vocals as much as possible without loosing intelligibility.
I have a Polish friend, who is a sound engineer. Oh, and a Czech one too.
balances are good except that "fx" vocals .. it's really loud and poking out too much. it should be around the same volume as the clean vocals to blend better in the mix. some vocals by the end are very loud too.
it sounds as if though the guitars have little body.. perhaps it's the boosted 800hz - 5khz area? feels like they are coming out of a tiny guitar amp.
drums - drums in this type of genre are very click by themselves.. don't be afraid to cut out 300hz - 800hz areas.. less muddiness or "cardboard" sound is benefitial for it.
I absolutely agree with you on the vocals. Especially the FX vox challenged me, 'cause it tends to blend to much with the music. In my first bounce I did tuck the vocals more into the mix, perhaps I should have kept that?
The guitars aren't boosted anywhere. I did HPF them ... not aggresively, but just around the point, where their energy is. I did however cut them conservatively, because I didn't want to make them too thin or too phased. I basically just cut the worst frequencies in the guitar tracks, because I reckon that the recorded guitar sound is a part of the artist's expression. In hind sight, perhaps I could have thinned them a little more, I dunno ...
I did cut the drums conservatively in the area you mention. Again, I didn't want to completely change the recorded drum sound nor did I want to kill the instrument's natural engergy.
It was a fun song to be messing with, so I'll definitely be looking into it again.
Thanks
(24-03-2020, 03:56 AM)Shul Wrote: balances are good except that "fx" vocals .. it's really loud and poking out too much. it should be around the same volume as the clean vocals to blend better in the mix. some vocals by the end are very loud too.
it sounds as if though the guitars have little body.. perhaps it's the boosted 800hz - 5khz area? feels like they are coming out of a tiny guitar amp.
drums - drums in this type of genre are very click by themselves.. don't be afraid to cut out 300hz - 800hz areas.. less muddiness or "cardboard" sound is benefitial for it.
I have a Polish friend, who is a sound engineer. Oh, and a Czech one too.
24-03-2020, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2020, 02:56 PM by Blitzzz.)
The Rhythm guitars sound very, very thin and artificial in the intro, but heavy/okayish in the verse. Don't cut away all the juice and weight (the famous "chug"!) from the rhythm guitars! That's a common error I hear in a lot in metal mixes on this forum where people really overdo the "hunt for offending frequencies" and end up with fragile, lifeless guitar sounds. Metal guitars should sound raw, aggressive, and offending - and they have to "chug." There is a great video series from Ola Englund called "Will it chug?". If you don't have this "chug" in your guitars, you basically missed the point
What guitar sound did we had in mind back when we recorded this song?
For Piece of me and all the other Darkride songs on our album, our guitar sound is very close to the guitar sound from early Killswitch Engage. You can listen to their guitar sound without drums, vocals and bass in this video (those stems were taken directly from the original mix for a game called Rock Band): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGNW0hNuzzk
Here is another "guitars only" video with a song from an older album and a slightly different sound (but still has the same heavy "chug" Killswitch Engage is known for to it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xHx8Bpc...zk&index=2
Those two videos make it quite easy to see if you are in the right ballpark with your mix.
The great Andy Sneap initially mixed the song. Super interesting to listen to those original stems.
Back to your mix
Vocals are too loud, and you lose a lot of energy, weight, and emotion because of it. Also, there is not enough bass in your mix as far as I can tell on my system. I made a quick A/B check with the original mix on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/album/72xpnfqgXe3JD00X8Pd1rn) to see if my Focal headphones are tricking me, which is not the case. Please go and check it for yourself.
Nobody is indeed humming the kick, but metal is all about guitar riffs and the energy they create together with drums and bass. Dial back the vocals (try -3db) and check if your mix has more power afterward. If not, check your cuts on the guitars, especially the low cuts. They might be too drastic. Also, check your bass and kick.
Have a great day and thank you for mixing my song,
Dirk
Thanks for your input, thanks for the links and thanks for these great tracks.
OK then ...
I absolutely agree with you 'bout the "chugging" on metal guitars. I've been listening to the raw guitar tracks of "Piece of me", and it seems to me that the guitars could've had more natural "chug", if that makes any sense.
Couldn't find the track on Spotiy, so I took a quick peak at a useless Youtube version, so I didn't find much help there.
Well, I'm gonna look into it again with your tips in mind.
Once again thank you
(24-03-2020, 12:47 PM)Blitzzz Wrote: The Rhythm guitars sound very, very thin and artificial in the intro, but heavy/okayish in the verse. Don't cut away all the juice and weight (the famous "chug"!) from the rhythm guitars! That's a common error I hear in a lot in metal mixes on this forum where people really overdo the "hunt for offending frequencies" and end up with fragile, lifeless guitar sounds. Metal guitars should sound raw, aggressive, and offending - and they have to "chug." There is a great video series from Ola Englund called "Will it chug?". If you don't have this "chug" in your guitars, you basically missed the point
What guitar sound did we had in mind back when we recorded this song?
For Piece of me and all the other Darkride songs on our album, our guitar sound is very close to the guitar sound from early Killswitch Engage. You can listen to their guitar sound without drums, vocals and bass in this video (those stems were taken directly from the original mix for a game called Rock Band): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGNW0hNuzzk
Here is another "guitars only" video with a song from an older album and a slightly different sound (but still has the same heavy "chug" Killswitch Engage is known for to it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xHx8Bpc...zk&index=2
Those two videos make it quite easy to see if you are in the right ballpark with your mix.
The great Andy Sneap initially mixed the song. Super interesting to listen to those original stems.
Back to your mix
Vocals are too loud, and you lose a lot of energy, weight, and emotion because of it. Also, there is not enough bass in your mix as far as I can tell on my system. I made a quick A/B check with the original mix on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/album/72xpnfqgXe3JD00X8Pd1rn) to see if my Focal headphones are tricking me, which is not the case. Please go and check it for yourself.
Nobody is indeed humming the kick, but metal is all about guitar riffs and the energy they create together with drums and bass. Dial back the vocals (try -3db) and check if your mix has more power afterward. If not, check your cuts on the guitars, especially the low cuts. They might be too drastic. Also, check your bass and kick.
Have a great day and thank you for mixing my song,
Dirk
I have a Polish friend, who is a sound engineer. Oh, and a Czech one too.
25-03-2020, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 25-03-2020, 11:42 AM by Blitzzz.)
Hey,
"I absolutely agree with you 'bout the "chugging" on metal guitars. I've been listening to the raw guitar tracks of "Piece of me", and it seems to me that the guitars could've had more natural "chug" if that makes any sense."
I struggled a lot to record a good guitar tone back when we recorded those songs, mostly because I wasn't sure "if it is good." And after a couple of months of going nowhere, I took my kemper and made a matchmaking profile of the guitar sound from "My Curse" and used that profile for most of the rhythm guitars on the first album. It was an almost exact copy from the guitar tone of My Curse, and if you want, you can listen to a comparison between the original sound and my profile in the attachment. The riff runs four times and is changing between the original riff (1st & 3rd run) and me playing the same riff on my old Kemper Amp (2nd & 4th).
I was delighted with the result back then, mainly because I didn't have a lot of confidence in my mixing skills because of a lack of experience. The good thing about copying Killswitch's guitar sound was that it taught me how much of the fat guitar sound on the Killswitch albums came from the bass and not from the guitar. Nowadays, I just grab a good amp sim like Archetype: Nolly or the Nameless Suite and dial in a tone that I like.
"Couldn't find the track on Spotify, so I took a quick peek at a useless Youtube version, so I didn't find much help there."
If you search for Darkride on Spotify, the album should show up. Or you can use this Soundcloud-Link, but the quality is a bit meh: https://soundcloud.com/darkridemetal/09-...-1/s-Qfgfo
Usually I do live sound, and I love Kempers. They're practical in every kind of way. However, I am aware that even with the profiling option, it's never gonna be the same, as an original amp, but I consider the differences to be marginal, and in a live context no one, or nearly no one - there will always be the odd one out - will hear the difference. On record it's diffenrent, because you have the time and oportunity to listen closely and make A/B comparisons. Obviouosly, you will hear every single difference, because it is your sound. Jack, Bud and Marion, on the other hand, who might own all Darkride mech and records and bought tickets to your past eleven shows won't have a clue. Listening to the riff, I do hear a small difference, but it's so tiny that it's almost not worth mentioning.
Again, thanks, I really appreciate it. I will keep a look out in case you should happen to be touring in my area
(25-03-2020, 11:31 AM)Blitzzz Wrote: Hey,
"I absolutely agree with you 'bout the "chugging" on metal guitars. I've been listening to the raw guitar tracks of "Piece of me", and it seems to me that the guitars could've had more natural "chug" if that makes any sense."
I struggled a lot to record a good guitar tone back when we recorded those songs, mostly because I wasn't sure "if it is good." And after a couple of months of going nowhere, I took my kemper and made a matchmaking profile of the guitar sound from "My Curse" and used that profile for most of the rhythm guitars on the first album. It was an almost exact copy from the guitar tone of My Curse, and if you want, you can listen to a comparison between the original sound and my profile in the attachment. The riff runs four times and is changing between the original riff (1st & 3rd run) and me playing the same riff on my old Kemper Amp (2nd & 4th).
I was delighted with the result back then, mainly because I didn't have a lot of confidence in my mixing skills because of a lack of experience. The good thing about copying Killswitch's guitar sound was that it taught me how much of the fat guitar sound on the Killswitch albums came from the bass and not from the guitar. Nowadays, I just grab a good amp sim like Archetype: Nolly or the Nameless Suite and dial in a tone that I like.
"Couldn't find the track on Spotify, so I took a quick peek at a useless Youtube version, so I didn't find much help there."
If you search for Darkride on Spotify, the album should show up. Or you can use this Soundcloud-Link, but the quality is a bit meh: https://soundcloud.com/darkridemetal/09-...-1/s-Qfgfo
Keep up the good work and stay healthy, Krabbe
I have a Polish friend, who is a sound engineer. Oh, and a Czech one too.
