Wow - lots of stuff going on here (not to mention the live tracking). Fun times!
I intentionally situated this a bit forward (and raucous) to keep the live vibe working. Loved the mandolin and horn instruments. Had to make some track decisions that would be great to discuss here (e.g., I tossed the mic'd acoustic track, one of the room tracks, and one of the main vocal tracks. The mic'd acoustic was more bleed than instrument - one room track really didn't help (imo) - and the two vocal tracks had phase issues together). Enjoy and comments always welcome
So here's a more "finished and polished" version. Given that most of the mixes in this section seem to be 'pseudo-mastered' as well (given their level), there's a gain increase as well on this mix:
I like the environment you put this into but I don't think it is doing a good for the low end, which has a boxiness to it which really gets in the way. Mybe for filtering on the low end reverb would help?
The low end on this song is probably the biggest challenge. The song, IMHO, is all about the guitar and mandolin bounce. It drives the song and everything else needs to serve that feel. Unfortunately the low end in this song does not drive the song well when it is too prevalent in the mix. Balancing out the bounce and the bottom end is the trick.
06-06-2019, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 06-06-2019, 03:16 PM by vicenzajay.)
(05-06-2019, 07:08 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: I like the environment you put this into but I don't think it is doing a good for the low end, which has a boxiness to it which really gets in the way. Mybe for filtering on the low end reverb would help?
The low end on this song is probably the biggest challenge. The song, IMHO, is all about the guitar and mandolin bounce. It drives the song and everything else needs to serve that feel. Unfortunately the low end in this song does not drive the song well when it is too prevalent in the mix. Balancing out the bounce and the bottom end is the trick.
Interesting thoughts - thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!
I do agree that the low end is difficult on this song - and that is reflected in what seems to be an over-inflated bass emphasis on much of what I'm hearing in the other mixes put up to this point. Would love to get a bit more detail on the 'boxiness' you're hearing. Is it a particular kick 'sound' you're not liking, etc.? The reverb is high passed quite a bit, but I suppose it could be shunted off even more. I'm seeing a very balanced frequency response on a spectral analysis (on my mix), but I take your point.
I'm hearing (in many of the mixes here) the results of untreated rooms...which inevitably push the low end as a result of uncontrolled low-freq response. Mine (as a result of having run a commercial studio for a while) is quite well treated - as I think that is the best investment in many ways (before other 'sexy' gear choices). Thus my follow-up question (i.e., I'm not hearing the boxiness/distraction - esp. when compared to other mixes here). (I'm *not completely happy with the translated snare sound, btw, but this is not a commercial project, so I'm moving on at this point - I think it *is a bit boxy at times, and I would probably want to automate some eq settings for different passages.)
Loved your mix, by the way. Very clear and 'studio-like', which is certainly one direction to take this song. I intentionally left a bunch of the (how did you put it) "quagmire" in to remain consistent with what seemed to be the "vision" of the performance - but were I to be hired to mix this, I would have gone more in your direction.
(05-06-2019, 07:08 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: I like the environment you put this into but I don't think it is doing a good for the low end, which has a boxiness to it which really gets in the way. Mybe for filtering on the low end reverb would help?
The low end on this song is probably the biggest challenge. The song, IMHO, is all about the guitar and mandolin bounce. It drives the song and everything else needs to serve that feel. Unfortunately the low end in this song does not drive the song well when it is too prevalent in the mix. Balancing out the bounce and the bottom end is the trick.
Interesting thoughts - thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!
I do agree that the low end is difficult on this song - and that is reflected in what seems to be an over-inflated bass emphasis on much of what I'm hearing in the other mixes put up to this point. Would love to get a bit more detail on the 'boxiness' you're hearing. Is it a particular kick 'sound' you're not liking, etc.? The reverb is high passed quite a bit, but I suppose it could be shunted off even more. I'm seeing a very balanced frequency response on a spectral analysis (on my mix), but I take your point.
I'm hearing (in many of the mixes here) the results of untreated rooms...which inevitably push the low end as a result of uncontrolled low-freq response. Mine (as a result of having run a commercial studio for a while) is quite well treated - as I think that is the best investment in many ways (before other 'sexy' gear choices). Thus my follow-up question (i.e., I'm not hearing the boxiness/distraction - esp. when compared to other mixes here). (I'm *not completely happy with the translated snare sound, btw, but this is not a commercial project, so I'm moving on at this point - I think it *is a bit boxy at times, and I would probably want to automate some eq settings for different passages.)
Loved your mix, by the way. Very clear and 'studio-like', which is certainly one direction to take this song. I intentionally left a bunch of the (how did you put it) "quagmire" in to remain consistent with what seemed to be the "vision" of the performance - but were I to be hired to mix this, I would have gone more in your direction.
Cheers and thanks for the discussion!
I think I am hearing it in the snare and kit, in general. I think a lot of this can be attributed to the bleed in the vocal mic. I took a very strange approach to the vocal tracks in the recording. I severely hi-passed the condenser and low-passed the dynamic and combined them with de-essing in several places.
(05-06-2019, 07:08 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: I like the environment you put this into but I don't think it is doing a good for the low end, which has a boxiness to it which really gets in the way. Mybe for filtering on the low end reverb would help?
The low end on this song is probably the biggest challenge. The song, IMHO, is all about the guitar and mandolin bounce. It drives the song and everything else needs to serve that feel. Unfortunately the low end in this song does not drive the song well when it is too prevalent in the mix. Balancing out the bounce and the bottom end is the trick.
Interesting thoughts - thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!
I do agree that the low end is difficult on this song - and that is reflected in what seems to be an over-inflated bass emphasis on much of what I'm hearing in the other mixes put up to this point. Would love to get a bit more detail on the 'boxiness' you're hearing. Is it a particular kick 'sound' you're not liking, etc.? The reverb is high passed quite a bit, but I suppose it could be shunted off even more. I'm seeing a very balanced frequency response on a spectral analysis (on my mix), but I take your point.
I'm hearing (in many of the mixes here) the results of untreated rooms...which inevitably push the low end as a result of uncontrolled low-freq response. Mine (as a result of having run a commercial studio for a while) is quite well treated - as I think that is the best investment in many ways (before other 'sexy' gear choices). Thus my follow-up question (i.e., I'm not hearing the boxiness/distraction - esp. when compared to other mixes here). (I'm *not completely happy with the translated snare sound, btw, but this is not a commercial project, so I'm moving on at this point - I think it *is a bit boxy at times, and I would probably want to automate some eq settings for different passages.)
Loved your mix, by the way. Very clear and 'studio-like', which is certainly one direction to take this song. I intentionally left a bunch of the (how did you put it) "quagmire" in to remain consistent with what seemed to be the "vision" of the performance - but were I to be hired to mix this, I would have gone more in your direction.
Cheers and thanks for the discussion!
I think I am hearing it in the snare and kit, in general. I think a lot of this can be attributed to the bleed in the vocal mic. I took a very strange approach to the vocal tracks in the recording. I severely hi-passed the condenser and low-passed the dynamic and combined them with de-essing in several places.
Yeah - bleed is a *huge* issue in this production all around. Nice production fix with the two mics. I just couldn't get past the phase wonkiness between them which bugged the heck out of me - given this is just a 'for fun' thing, I just chose the one I liked on his voice and went with it...the cost being bleed and the coloring of everything else. e.g. - choices based on available time.
Mixing live music in a post setting is definitely quite interesting and an education in itself.
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Yeah - bleed is a *huge* issue in this production all around. Nice production fix with the two mics. I just couldn't get past the phase wonkiness between them which bugged the heck out of me - given this is just a 'for fun' thing, I just chose the one I liked on his voice and went with it...the cost being bleed and the coloring of everything else. e.g. - choices based on available time.
Mixing live music in a post setting is definitely quite interesting and an education in itself.
(06-06-2019, 04:58 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: Did you try phase flipping the mics?
Yes - quickly - but even though they aligned a bit better, the combination was not pleasing to my ear. That said, had I reflected more your solution should have come to mind (I've used related strategies in the past...i.e., years ago....on live, multi-tracked stuff that came in to mix where the group/recording engineer really wanted the sonic imprint of "their" microphones - all of them).
To be more precise, and in the spirit of the educational nature of this forum, phase issues were going to be inherent in the two mics, given the massive amount of bleed in the condenser and the certainty of wedge monitoring both contributing to that bleed as well as signal differential between dynamic and condenser elements. I just punted - which, as you've already noted, resulted in overall mix issues that became harder as a result.
All kudos to you, I do have to note that I much prefer my lead vocal "end result" to your mix (even if other portions suffered). I find your vocal tone noticeably more brittle (as a result of the extremely high-passed condenser, it sounds like) - it's still great, but to my ear my vocals sound significantly fuller, less "manipulated" yet present, and more "coherent" in the context of the entire mix.
Hope that makes sense.
On another note - I have followed the discussion of the acoustic on your thread as well. Not sure where I stand on that. I had made the decision to place it to the right - horns full left - mandolin mid-left - lead mid right (but also panned a bit for fullness). Congas were slightly left, but they were hard to place (and I note that every mix I've listened to here has had a super hard time with the conga placement such that they are adding much (other than additional muddiness/thickness in the low mids).
(06-06-2019, 04:58 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: Did you try phase flipping the mics?
Yes - quickly - but even though they aligned a bit better, the combination was not pleasing to my ear. That said, had I reflected more your solution should have come to mind (I've used related strategies in the past...i.e., years ago....on live, multi-tracked stuff that came in to mix where the group/recording engineer really wanted the sonic imprint of "their" microphones - all of them).
To be more precise, and in the spirit of the educational nature of this forum, phase issues were going to be inherent in the two mics, given the massive amount of bleed in the condenser and the certainty of wedge monitoring both contributing to that bleed as well as signal differential between dynamic and condenser elements. I just punted - which, as you've already noted, resulted in overall mix issues that became harder as a result.
All kudos to you, I do have to note that I much prefer my lead vocal "end result" to your mix (even if other portions suffered). I find your vocal tone noticeably more brittle (as a result of the extremely high-passed condenser, it sounds like) - it's still great, but to my ear my vocals sound significantly fuller, less "manipulated" yet present, and more "coherent" in the context of the entire mix.
Hope that makes sense.
On another note - I have followed the discussion of the acoustic on your thread as well. Not sure where I stand on that. I had made the decision to place it to the right - horns full left - mandolin mid-left - lead mid right (but also panned a bit for fullness). Congas were slightly left, but they were hard to place (and I note that every mix I've listened to here has had a super hard time with the conga placement such that they are adding much (other than additional muddiness/thickness in the low mids).
It is impossible to know how the dual mics were used. One may have been for recording the other for monitors, but that is just a guess. I tried to use them for the best rejection of the room. Not sure I was successful. I had a hard time getting a full bodied vocal without muddiness so I went for a more present vocal with as much expression as I could muster. And as you related, it also helped with the 'boxyness' of the snare and kit off the bleed.
(06-06-2019, 09:42 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: It is impossible to know how the dual mics were used. One may have been for recording the other for monitors, but that is just a guess. I tried to use them for the best rejection of the room. Not sure I was successful. I had a hard time getting a full bodied vocal without muddiness so I went for a more present vocal with as much expression as I could muster. And as you related, it also helped with the 'boxyness' of the snare and kit off the bleed.
All good!
You gave me quite a bit to think about - so I did about 30 minutes of "touch up"/rework (no more time than that) taking your thread's discussion into account as well. This was the result. I think it's at least a little better than where I was before given your advice.
