Inner Circle Final Mix and Master

[dcp10200]

Here's the final Mix and master of Inner Circle, for this I didn't use the K System as my mixing or mastering, I used Sleepy Time Productions Stereo Channel VU Meters, and an LUFS Meter as brought up by Dave and Kapu in the last thread. Needless to say I prefer this style of metering now as it allows me to see more of what's going on.

Like last time, I've done a Hard Compressed master (Peak LUFS for this read as "Over" but it hovered around 13 LUFS) and a more dynamic master (Peak LUFS is 15 LUFS). The Hard compressed master I've uploaded has been level matched as close as possible to the dynamic master as to not cause confusion and to make it more of a fair comparison between the two masters.

I've deleted my previous thread so that nothing get too cluttered up in the thread here.

Cheers, and thanks for the comments,
Dcp

[chuck moe]

Nice Mix! I like the soft master slightly better.

[dcp10200]

Nice Mix! I like the soft master slightly better.

Thanks Chuck for the comments.

Cheers,
Dcp

[The_Metallurgist]

I've deleted my previous thread so that nothing get too cluttered up in the thread here.

Look, you are at liberty to delete your own threads, but i STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU DON'T because it's highly disrespectful of the individuals who've taken the time to give feedback and enter discussion that OTHER'S IN THE COMMUNITY CAN ALSO LEARN FROM. caps for emphasis.

I can tell from your posts that you are very inexperienced in both the art and the science of audio, and you are one of many in this forum in this situation. Nobody knows who you are, and i doubt that anyone cares....so you have no reason to delete anything that you feel might cause you to lose face, for example. Everyone is here to learn from everyone else.....we have freedom to fkuc up and help other's learn from our mistakes as much as we can learn from theirs.

The K-system, which you were using before my post in the since deleted thread, is outdated and i felt you and many others in the forum who don't fully understand dynamics and loudness while reading the thread, could benefit from a little knowledge - ignorance impinges on our quality of workmanship, ultimately, and unless it gets addressed can be a fundamental block in self development and further advancement. I appreciate you've since upgraded your VST folder with a loudness meter from my efforts, but you now need to upgrade your education so that you can use it effectively but this takes some responsibility. It will require a significant amount of reading-up and research on your part because know-how doesn't automatically occur when the plugin gets installed! You also need to fully understand the terminology involved in loudness metering and use it appropriately; if we call an elephant a spider, it's going to confuse a lot of people.

Thanks in advance of your cooperation.

Regarding your files, both have been "significantly" compressed at the micro and macro level (why?) which no doubt goes some way to explaining the level of distortion and it's resultant fatigue which I'm experiencing, especially from the treble zone. You need to go back into the mix and address the source of the problem(s) and try some revisions. Your mixes would also benefit from more dynamics at the macro level, this is a long song and needs some variation in order to keep the listener engaged - I think contrast is important in achieving this.

Try doing a mix without touching a compressor, and using EQ and automation only; I found it to be a liberating experience.

[dcp10200]

I've deleted my previous thread so that nothing get too cluttered up in the thread here.

Look, you are at liberty to delete your own threads, but i STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU DON'T because it's highly disrespectful of the individuals who've taken the time to give feedback and enter discussion that OTHER'S IN THE COMMUNITY CAN ALSO LEARN FROM. caps for emphasis.

I can tell from your posts that you are very inexperienced in both the art and the science of audio, and you are one of many in this forum in this situation. Nobody knows who you are, and i doubt that anyone cares....so you have no reason to delete anything that you feel might cause you to lose face, for example. Everyone is here to learn from everyone else.....we have freedom to fkuc up and help other's learn from our mistakes as much as we can learn from theirs.

The K-system, which you were using before my post in the since deleted thread, is outdated and i felt you and many others in the forum who don't fully understand dynamics and loudness while reading the thread, could benefit from a little knowledge - ignorance impinges on our quality of workmanship, ultimately, and unless it gets addressed can be a fundamental block in self development and further advancement. I appreciate you've since upgraded your VST folder with a loudness meter from my efforts, but you now need to upgrade your education so that you can use it effectively but this takes some responsibility. It will require a significant amount of reading-up and research on your part because know-how doesn't automatically occur when the plugin gets installed! You also need to fully understand the terminology involved in loudness metering and use it appropriately; if we call an elephant a spider, it's going to confuse a lot of people.

Thanks in advance of your cooperation.

Regarding your files, both have been "significantly" compressed at the micro and macro level (why?) which no doubt goes some way to explaining the level of distortion and it's resultant fatigue which I'm experiencing, especially from the treble zone. You need to go back into the mix and address the source of the problem(s) and try some revisions. Your mixes would also benefit from more dynamics at the macro level, this is a long song and needs some variation in order to keep the listener engaged - I think contrast is important in achieving this.

Try doing a mix without touching a compressor, and using EQ and automation only; I found it to be a liberating experience.

First off, I AM AT LIBERTY TO DO WHAT I WANT. Plus Takka360 does this all the time and no one says anything to him, this is the only time I have done this on this forum. Sorry if I offend you.

As for my experience, I have been volunteering at my local Cable Access TV channel for 5 Years where I learned the basics of audio engineering, I went through Audio school where I graduated the top 10% of my class and have been toying with music and mixing since I was 14. Don't tell me I'm inexperienced.

If you are hearing distortion in my mix, guess what, I used a combination of console distortion and tape saturation. The most my soft master is compressed is 2 dB at the loudest peak. The Hard master is compressed by 2 dB on average. After listening back I know that the mix is harsh and I'm revisiting it with a much different approach.

The reason I don't use my name: I try to stay as anonymous as possible online (I know people personally who have had their identities stolen online and it's not a good racket to be caught up in). I do however use my Initials, DCP. I will hint that I live on the east coast of Canada and the time zone is -3:30 GMT.

I'm again sorry if I offend you, there's always that ignore list if you don't want to see my posts.

Thanks for the suggestions,
Dcp

[The_Metallurgist]

First off, I AM AT LIBERTY TO DO WHAT I WANT.

i acknowledged that. but have some consideration for others....that's all i'm saying. had i only typed 2 lines then it wouldn't have concerned me. however, i went to great efforts to help you, and help the rest of the forum by bringing up some important information.

i'm pleased that you were able to take advantage of my advice and move forwards. but the post needed to be present so others can do likewise should they wish.

Plus Takka360 does this all the time and no one says anything to him

i've raised this with Alan in the past when i've typed more than two sentences, aware that he clears old material. if i've requested that he keeps the thread running so others might benefit, he's done so, which i greatly respect and appreciate.

As for my experience, I have been volunteering at my local Cable Access TV channel for 5 Years where I learned the basics of audio engineering, I went through Audio school where I graduated the top 10% of my class and have been toying with music and mixing since I was 14. Don't tell me I'm inexperienced.

all the more reason not to use an obsolete standard like the K-system (though to be precise, it wasn't a standard but a recommendation in the absence of anything else which was better at the time).

in the relative scheme of things, we are all ignorant to a greater or lesser extent. so long as we all keep at it, we simply become a little less ignorant.

If you are hearing distortion in my mix, guess what, I used a combination of console distortion and tape saturation.

might i suggest that you ease up on it?

The most my soft master is compressed is 2 dB at the loudest peak.

but if the recordings have been compressed by 15dB, you then compress the track some more, compress the group buss, then compress the master buss, it will take it's toll. i say this by way of example. whatever, there is too much downward compression here overall and my feedback would be to suggest easing up on it and perhaps consider the wider implications of what you are achieving in reducing dynamics further....other than making it loud. now it's up to you whether you wish to embrace this need, of course.

After listening back I know that the mix is harsh and I'm revisiting it with a much different approach.

excellent.

the ear can become quite attached to distortion during the mixing process and it doesn't take much before we begin to lose our bearings on reality and dial in more than the mission can sustain or would benefit from. the secret is to be able to discern the issues of fatigue while dialling in the parameters during mixing. if you are finding out later, then if it was me, i'd review my mixing strategy and tweak it somehow, because the outcome suggests that something isn't working right.

don't forget, that it can take a matter of seconds before the brain adjusts to a new parameter change and gets to like it, even if it sucks! overcoming this is one of the biggest challenges in mixing.

taking regular breaks can make a big difference.....my biggest weakness!

I'm again sorry if I offend you

that's ok, i know you didn't mean to so there's no damage done

thanks for being a gentleman, your courtesy is respected.

[dcp10200]

but if the recordings have been compressed by 15dB, you then compress the track some more, compress the group buss, then compress the master buss, it will take it's toll. i say this by way of example. whatever, there is too much downward compression here overall and my feedback would be to suggest easing up on it and perhaps consider the wider implications of what you are achieving in reducing dynamics further....other than making it loud. now it's up to you whether you wish to embrace this need, of course.

Here's the thing, I use no actual compression on my groups, maybe a small amount of drums and some on vocals to get them consistent and clear if needed. That mix I did of Queen's light that you liked the dynamics of was way more compressed than this (just take a listen to the snare and drums in particular, it's slamming an SSL Buss comp's brains out!). However I used a lot of Parallel Processing but still it's almost 1:1 blend and was mastered to K12, nowhere near Youtube or Spotify's recommended LUFS level.

Oddly enough loudness isn't my goal on anything, if it were my goal I would just ram everything though a Waves L1 till it clipped beyond recognition. I did use a soft clipper when mastering because I like the sound of my mix hitting that rather than a normal limiter like the L1 or L2, it just trims the snare and kick about 3 dB on my hard master and 1-2 dB on my soft master. Also I used a bit crusher on the vocals during the build to "fading away" vocal bit which added way too much harshness to that section.

Again, for this style of music I have found a more compressed and distorted sounding mix is what feels appropriate. Technically it makes no sense but look at the way the music is structured, walls of distorted electric guitars, bass guitar that tends to follow much of the rhythm guitar with some minor interplay, and slamming drums. We are looking at a modern stoner/prog metal band, part of the sound is designed to be distorted, dissonant and hard edged. Listen to Purple by Baroness or Songs for the Deaf by Queens of the Stone Age, technically those albums are a nightmare and are way too compressed, but they use that to emulate the feeling of being in a practice space or small live venue and being blasted by sound. Don't get me wrong, for a small acoustic group, indie act, or jazz that style isn't appropriate and takes away from the feel of the music, but with rock music it tends to lean to an abrasive sound.

Not saying this is what my mix sounds like at all (the overheads, guitars and vocals are really getting me flustered here), but I hope this explains what I'm going for alittle more, raw, ferocious, and hard edged.

[The_Metallurgist]

One of the issues with only quoting gain reduction values when discussing compression, is that different parameters can have a significant impact on the attack and decay envelopes, and still achieve the same level of reduction. Another point i'd mention, in passing, is that a gain reduction that never goes to zero, or rarely gets the chance, is being compressed almost permanently. So, I take gain reduction statements generally with a pinch of salt because it doesn't mean anything. What does help tell a story to me, is whether I can listen to music without suffering fatigue from the lack of dynamics and the consequences of high rates of compression/distortion and it's artifacts. I hear what you are saying, but the mix is a problem and you need to address the issues in order to progress it....if you wish to progress it, of course.

I don't know what you are using for monitors, nor how effective your listening environment is (including room acoustics, volume, etc), but this might also be playing a part in one's ability to make reliable and accurate assessments in the quality department.

Excitement in music comes from transients and attack, for example. Compression, and I say this while being mindful of the different envelopes we can shape, will, on the whole, reduce transients. Furthermore, electric gtrs are compressed as part of their sound, therefore any further compression in the mix merely removes what dynamic was actually remaining....adding a disproportionate level of distortion while doing so. So, when we compress on the master buss, for example, those already “well compressed” guitars [from the tracking stage amps] risk being adulterated. If I can't listen without discomfort/fatigue, then I must question the whole philosophy behind the vision at a fundamental level.

I understand the essence of your goal, but I think you need to re-evaluate what you've done here, even accounting for the issues in the multi (especially the cymbals which are excessively abundant in the recordings around 4kHz – smack in the ears most sensitive region). Compress this, compress that, saturate this, saturate that, clip this, clip that, all stacks up if not applied tastefully and carefully. Our ears get to like treble too quickly and before you know it, it can wrong foot us.

the “soft-master” has a mere LRA of 2.2. For a song that's 5 minutes or so long, that's musical suicide. Incidentally, the “hard-master” file had an LRA of 1.9! In subjective terms, it explains why the mix is boring - it lacks macro dynamics. It's our responsibility to put them in as best as the arrangement allows; it's a fundamental skill of a mixing engineer to do this. The graph attached illustrates diagrammatically the full nature of the issue....on top of the points I've already discussed regarding over-compression and distortion at the micro level.

Looking forward to the revision, if you get round to it

[dcp10200]

One of the issues with only quoting gain reduction values when discussing compression, is that different parameters can have a significant impact on the attack and decay envelopes, and still achieve the same level of reduction. Another point i'd mention, in passing, is that a gain reduction that never goes to zero, or rarely gets the chance, is being compressed almost permanently. So, I take gain reduction statements generally with a pinch of salt because it doesn't mean anything. What does help tell a story to me, is whether I can listen to music without suffering fatigue from the lack of dynamics and the consequences of high rates of compression/distortion and it's artifacts. I hear what you are saying, but the mix is a problem and you need to address the issues in order to progress it....if you wish to progress it, of course.

I don't know what you are using for monitors, nor how effective your listening environment is (including room acoustics, volume, etc), but this might also be playing a part in one's ability to make reliable and accurate assessments in the quality department.

Excitement in music comes from transients and attack, for example. Compression, and I say this while being mindful of the different envelopes we can shape, will, on the whole, reduce transients. Furthermore, electric gtrs are compressed as part of their sound, therefore any further compression in the mix merely removes what dynamic was actually remaining....adding a disproportionate level of distortion while doing so. So, when we compress on the master buss, for example, those already “well compressed” guitars [from the tracking stage amps] risk being adulterated. If I can't listen without discomfort/fatigue, then I must question the whole philosophy behind the vision at a fundamental level.

I understand the essence of your goal, but I think you need to re-evaluate what you've done here, even accounting for the issues in the multi (especially the cymbals which are excessively abundant in the recordings around 4kHz – smack in the ears most sensitive region). Compress this, compress that, saturate this, saturate that, clip this, clip that, all stacks up if not applied tastefully and carefully. Our ears get to like treble too quickly and before you know it, it can wrong foot us.

the “soft-master” has a mere LRA of 2.2. For a song that's 5 minutes or so long, that's musical suicide. Incidentally, the “hard-master” file had an LRA of 1.9! In subjective terms, it explains why the mix is boring - it lacks macro dynamics. It's our responsibility to put them in as best as the arrangement allows; it's a fundamental skill of a mixing engineer to do this. The graph attached illustrates diagrammatically the full nature of the issue....on top of the points I've already discussed regarding over-compression and distortion at the micro level.

Looking forward to the revision, if you get round to it

I'm mixing on a set of AKG K240 MKII headphones through a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, my room at this point is very small and I don't have much room for monitors, I do have a pair of Yorkville YSM6 studio monitors but I'm currently working on my monitoring setup. All my mixes are checked on a Sony Home Theater in a Box for a "real world" comparison. I still live at home with my parents so that does handicap me as well. I'm 21 and still looking for work so my budget is very limited, most of what I have now were partially funded by my parents.

Regarding ear fatiuge: I guess you aren't a metal or heavy rock fan, personally those genres are most of what I listen to and mix. I don't find my ears get fatigued after listening to heavy compressed mixes and masters, only if I'm mixing for hours on end in excessive volume which is rare. I guess you are very sensitive in that regard. Probably physically it's a different case for me but that's that.

I appreciate that dynamics are part of music (I play in a military style band and pay everything from Jazz to Military marches and modern Pop), some forms of music have more than others and this genre is based off of a wall of sound, if you don't like hard compression and distortion, this isn't what is going to make you want to really listen to it. Also "Boring" is a subjective term, something that isn't helpful in the slightest so please refrain from using it. Something you warned me and Mixinthecloud about on a couple of your mixes. I'm working on a revision but I must warn that the sound will be similar to this but less harsh and more automation.