Much Too Much - Dags mix (Sorry in advance for the long rambles - sheesh!)

[Dags]

Hi all

Man oh man, I'm really struggling with this song. I trashed my first attempt and started from scratch again bit I don't think it is much better.
I'm finding it really hard to balance all the brass and contend with the enormous spill from everywhere and everything in most channels and the inconsistent recording levels of the brass instruments.

I'd love to hear from other people who have attempted this track to get an idea of how they treated the horns - what frequencies they targetted, compression used, etc.
I have been treating all the 'harsh' areas of each instrument ranging from 1K - 7K and cleaning out the mud below 300Hz, compressing to try to keep the dynamics in check, bussed them all to a stereo pair and ran more EQ and compression to lock them together a little more.

More automation than I care to think about going on under the hood to treat individual words and notes as well.

The toms just aren't 'there' in the mix as well. I hunted out and copied just those hits to another channel so I could raise their volume but they still sound too far back from the mics.

No matter what I do I just can't seem to get to my target sound which, admittedly, is based on my memory of the sound of the Wally Stott orchestra from the Goon Show series
Am I trying to do achieve much too much [badoom *tish!*] with what is available here in the supplied material?

Technical help greatly appreciated!
(Oh, Mike yes I found the mix notes thanks. They helped with this version
[quick edit - I just found the online SOS article for your mix rescue so I have a better idea of how the ensemble was set up now. Back to the drawing board]

Dags

[Dags]

Excellent! Though I'm not an e-subscriber (talk to work about giving me more $ so I can afford some luxuries) there was enough info on the limited access SOS article to give me some direction. I'll have to wait until next month to get access to the full article to see what other goodies are in there....or I'll see if there's still a copy in my local newsagency floating around, which is how I normally get my copies. Just haven't had the money since the arrival of the baby

The secret, folks, was to lower the frequency I had on my HF shelving on the trumpets and trombones to take out more of the direct mic brass overload. (Still some distortion in the recorded material at times though)

I am also using another compressor across the horn section stereo buss sidechained to the vocal to slightly tuck the horns out of the way when the vocalist is singing .

There's also a very low in level 0.6ms 'room' across all instruments (except the room mic channel) to help blend these with the vocal's sense of space.

I have also raised the level of the room mic channel and adjusted the automation of the direct brass instrument channels to compensate.

OK - I'm a little happier with this mix.

Comments and further assistance most welcome!

Dags

[takka360]

Hi yes i think problem mixes sort the men out from the boys and well done for trying this.
I think you have done a good job.I also think this type of stuff would suit a mixer that is into this
type music.Well done i think you are on your way to being a great mixer because you put so much
time into it and that is the secret of mixing nothing else,doing it doing it doing it simple as that.
its the same with anything in life.

[JohnSmith]

Hi Dags !

Well, you've attacked a big piece of mix here ! This is probably one i'm gonna do soon, but for now i won't have time enough to spend on this.
It's quite a challenge i admit

Maybe i'd listen to a lot of Michael Buble records, Sinatra and Jamie Cullum before mixing this, just to have an idea of how i would like it to sound : HUGE ! With air and space !!!

Which leads me to what i think about you mix : (sorry again, i'm going to "tease" you again )
It's well balanced but really sufer from a lack of depth, air, and life...

I won't go any further in details as i haven't listened to the multitrack, but i think if there's somewhere to begin, it would be working on air and space !
Try to listen to Michael Buble records... they are, for me, one of the best sound in this sort of music (mixed by great sound engineer Humberto Gatica...).

I will keep an ear on your mixes of this song dear Dags

Cheers

[Dags]

Thanks for the feedback people!
Yes, this one has been a bit of an uphill battle for me. I haven't had experience with big bands before.

I just listened to WavolutionLab's mix and I can see I have a fair way to go. Xabi, I think part of the problem is I have too much of the room mic in the mix which is keeping a constant feed of sound filling the space, instead of allowing the track to breathe when the horns aren't playing.
Let me know if the first version I posted has more depth (even though the balance isn't all there) compared to V2. It could be a matter of me refining the blend between direct and ambient mic to let the song open up a bit more.

Listening back, I also need to bring down the level of a couple of tom rolls and increase the guitar in level just a tad.

I have a couple of Buble albums here - not a bad idea to reset my brain by listening to music with the same style before embarking on this kind of mix. Good suggestion!

Dags

[Dags]

Happy Easter for those who celebrate - or if you're like me and you just take advantage of any excuse to eat lots of chocolate

Working on a bigger, brighter, spacier version of the previous one.
...well, hopefully it's all that. My ears burned out an hour ago.

I have panned the various reed & brass instruments evenly across the field, no longer dictated by their actual position in the room, to get a bit more balance to the force....and I got tired of having my right ear slammed by all that brass.

Reduced the level of the room channel so the close mics now contribute more to the sound, allowing more space to open up when the horn section stops playing, and the instruments themselves aren't as loud in the mix as a result of losing some of the energy from the lowered room mic channel.

BTW, I got the delay time of the 'combining' reverb wrong in my previous post - it's only 0.3s.

Also added a slight delay to the lead instruments (vocals, trombone and alto sax) to give them a bit more 'life'. The delay sends to trom & sax have been cut when the instrument isn't playing it's lead part.

Oh in the previous versions, in my silly eagerness to emulate the analogue tape recordings of 'ye days of olde' for this style of music I'd made a gentle HF rolloff across the master out - yeah, ok, stupid idea. 20kHz can now be heard in all its glory

Ok - to bed!

Dags


[edit the next day: Hmmm.....to be honest I prefer the sound in the previous version with having the room mics up a bit in the mix. Though the song has more rise and fall of the background ambience when the horns aren't playing in V3, it's missing some of the 'live space' energy of the snare reflecting everywhere. I probably only need to push it up 1-2dB to split the difference. Will tackle it again in a day or so when my head clears - I think I'm fighting off a cold]

[Dags]

I'm officially at war with the ride cymbal in this track.
It's in everything apart from the overdubbed vocals so it's just getting boosted from being present in all open channels and I can't bring the level down enough without losing critical frequencies in the horn section.
There's multiband compressors and surgical EQ cuts in nearly everything I can to rein it in.
Mike, if you can get the drummer to send the cymbal to me I'll make a video of me taking to it with a log splitter

Bringing the kick and snare up in the mix helps balance out the drums with the dominating ride, but then the tom hits are still 'distant'. I think I have, at least, got the drums sounding as though all elements are heard from the same perspective.

So I think this finally has a good live 'big band' vibe about it - the focus is on the horns and the vocals, the bass and drums support the mix as you'd expect, and the guitar and piano also play a lesser supporting role, though I have played god with the piano parts and brought them in and out of focus as I saw fit.
The individual horn parts have also had more automation adjustments to create rise and fall of lead and backing parts and maintain a steady level for the trombone that kind of slides on and off mic axis.

I have wrung all I can out of the individual tracks and this time there's enough of the room mics in there to add the blending of the whole band and that lovely snare smashing around the room....and the horrid ride yet again.

There's also a stereo impulse response reverb for adding some extra reverb to the horn section (I like them to have a bit more decay tail) which mimics the mono effect I set up for the vocal to try to get the singer's voice working a similar space to the original band recording.

It's no 'Feeling Good' or 'New York, New York', but it's almost there

This mix has about done me in. Time to get myself ready for work in the morning!

I hope you enjoy this version. I can't listen to it any more!!

...yes I can!
It's stuck in my head now

Dags

[thedon]

Good level mix,vince jones and grace knight are great refference tracks for Jazz !

[Aris]

I'm officially at war with the ride cymbal in this track.
It's in everything apart from the overdubbed vocals so it's just getting boosted from being present in all open channels and I can't bring the level down enough without losing critical frequencies in the horn section.
There's multiband compressors and surgical EQ cuts in nearly everything I can to rein it in.
Mike, if you can get the drummer to send the cymbal to me I'll make a video of me taking to it with a log splitter

Bringing the kick and snare up in the mix helps balance out the drums with the dominating ride, but then the tom hits are still 'distant'. I think I have, at least, got the drums sounding as though all elements are heard from the same perspective.

So I think this finally has a good live 'big band' vibe about it - the focus is on the horns and the vocals, the bass and drums support the mix as you'd expect, and the guitar and piano also play a lesser supporting role, though I have played god with the piano parts and brought them in and out of focus as I saw fit.
The individual horn parts have also had more automation adjustments to create rise and fall of lead and backing parts and maintain a steady level for the trombone that kind of slides on and off mic axis.

I have wrung all I can out of the individual tracks and this time there's enough of the room mics in there to add the blending of the whole band and that lovely snare smashing around the room....and the horrid ride yet again.

There's also a stereo impulse response reverb for adding some extra reverb to the horn section (I like them to have a bit more decay tail) which mimics the mono effect I set up for the vocal to try to get the singer's voice working a similar space to the original band recording.

It's no 'Feeling Good' or 'New York, New York', but it's almost there

This mix has about done me in. Time to get myself ready for work in the morning!

I hope you enjoy this version. I can't listen to it any more!!

...yes I can!
It's stuck in my head now

Dags

Hello Dugs, i know that this song is very difficult to mix. I have the same issues. I think than you have over-compressed or automate some of the tracks. I like the "space" that you give at vocals. The snare is a little muddy for my taste but generally it seems that you have worked hard.
Bravo for the job!!

[Voelund]

Thats a very controlled and airy version. Good job chaasing the sound you had in your head. Very diffrent from mine ( I used room tracks a lot and gave way more verb and sunk voice into the band )
You made a great version of this. Good job !