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Forkupines - 'Sleep By The Fire, Bloom In Water' - mixed by mick2015
#11
the trouble is, that it seems like everyone is trying to get an in-your-face mix going. while doing so, they are totally ignoring the need for ambiance and providing the subjective illusion that every instrument is in the same performance space. the vocal here, as a prime example, sounds like a sound booth. it's missing all the necessary time delays which we humans take as invaluable cues, to place it in a "space". all music is produced in a space....unless you were intentionally seeking a "synthetic" laboratory/studio/ambiance-free sound, of course. so, the fact that this sounds unreal makes it a distraction. most average, non-musical, non-audio types like the mother-in-law, will focus primarily on the vocal.....so it's gotta shine if it's to engage their subconscious? if you are not giving it the right and appropriate exposure, then the song is more likely to fall over than if the snare, say, wasn't quite spanking hard enough....or the lead guitar had an overly wide Q at 473Hz.

it would be interesting to hear this mix with some ambiance and instrument placement....i think it will transform it.

one of the traps of the multi-track is that it's had the treble rolled off on everything before we got it, resulting in a fairly steep cut for the song overall, from around 5kHz onwards? if you boost treble on any instrument where it's not naturally present in the tracking, it's going to make it as brittle as hell......and it is. compression is your enemy here too, because of the way it impacts the trebles.

Cheers,,,
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#12
Version 3.0

Hey guys, I've taken a slightly different approach with my third mix. Initially, I was intending to not use any drum samples, but decided to use some samples in this version. I also used some completely different EQ's and compressors to provide a different flavour and hopefully a bit more warmth. Usage of reverbs and delays slightly different also. Tried to keep usage of them subtle, as rock/punk music rarely benefits from these. Thanks again for listening and any comments are always appreciated.


.mp3    Forkupines - mixed by mick2015 v3.mp3 --  (Download: 7.64 MB)


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#13
(25-10-2015, 08:10 AM)mick2015 Wrote: Version 3.0

Hey guys,

careful, some females who are brave enough to enter this den of testosterone and ego, might find that sexist? Wink

Quote:I've taken a slightly different approach with my third mix. Initially, I was intending to not use any drum samples, but decided to use some samples in this version.

i found the snare and drum sample supplied by Till to be highly effective, especially when worked in with the OH's. i must say, the kick in this mix sounds detached and rather frontal. one of the benefits of reverb is that it allows us to place things in the depth field. this kick would benefit from depth placement in order to provide the illusion that it's sitting in with the rest of the kit, unless this was a creative decision? given the genre, it unfortunately doesn't work as it is. i felt the toms weren't panned according to the width in the OH's, you might want to check that out. regarding the OH's, they are major trouble to deal with. in the raw, they are on the verge of offensive (on the edge of brittle and potentially fatiguing?). i am suspicious of the recording of these things. they've been messed with post-recording and i can't help wondering if there's been some aliasing going on at the time of tracking and it's been disguised by the later-applied high cut? anyway, my choice of EQ on cymbals generally is to take the analogue emu route; the Pultec would be my preference - digital "anything" emu's simply bring harshness and any compression (analogue or digital emu's) further down stream makes it worse. i didn't think the kit here sounded "together".

Quote: I also used some completely different EQ's and compressors to provide a different flavour and hopefully a bit more warmth.

good idea to try different strategies.

Quote:Usage of reverbs and delays slightly different also. Tried to keep usage of them subtle, as rock/punk music rarely benefits from these.

there's a golden rule to reverbs: if you can hear them then we've applied too much. however, a good test is to feed them in until your ear starts hearing the effect (decent tweeters are crucial to get the balance right), then back them/it off a touch out of the way. if you hit the emu's off button, you should notice it's missing. outside of this generalisation there's the big world of creativity, genres (i.e. listener expectations) and what suits the concept of the song, and of course it's density too has it's part.

but everything lives in a space and has at least some amount of ambiance. if we don't make that spacial information valid in the illusion we are subjectively creating in our stereo image, the song becomes a distraction. whether this distraction is at the conscious or unconscious level depends on whether it's the mother-in-law listening, or someone with good critical listening skills. either way, distractions should generally be avoided:

e.g. the bass guitar solo intro (and the rest of it) is immediately distracting...because it doesn't have ambiance, neither does the kick or the eguitar intro. an intro to any song is crucial because it sets the listener up for the rest of the song. woe betide anyone who mucks this up. to some extent we are constrained by the arrangement. or are we?

getting the blend and balance of early and late reflections right is critical. but even this is not enough, however, because depth also has an effect on frequency response of the instrument(s); voice too is an instrument. if OH's are rolled off too much, say, then it presents the illusion that the drums are further back than we might wish in our vision. however, trying to make the kit appear subjectively closer means they need to be brighter......then out come the gremlins of fatigue.

going back to the vocal from my previous post, if i may? there's an over-abundance of proximity in the tracking and it's frequency response is wrong for providing the illusion of real proximity. the sm7 is crippled by it's lack of treble, other than abundant sibilance!!!! it also makes many singers sound like they've got a bad cold and its application here is no exception. the sm57 and sm58's are similar nightmares!!!!! i don't know if this guy is just nasal as hell, has a cold, or whether it's the mic screwing him up, but it's not good. some attempt at getting air/treble into the mic by removing the pop filter but it never works. my solution is to throw the mic out the window and buy something more suitable for the job! lol.

switch your mix to mono and listen to the verse, the transition into the chorus, and the chorus itself. focus only on the eguitars. what goes wrong?

now listen to the balance of your instruments also in mono.....what sticks out, what gets buried?

Quote:Thanks again for listening and any comments are always appreciated.

thanks indeed for helping us develop our listening skills as well as hear a different perspective than our own. keep it up Wink
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#14
(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: careful, some females who are brave enough to enter this den of testosterone and ego, might find that sexist? Wink

I work with a large team of females and believe me, if I DIDN'T refer to them as "the guys" in a group context, the consequences would be nothing short of dire! Incidentally, it could be considered presumptuous that you have assumed I am male Wink

(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: this kick would benefit from depth placement in order to provide the illusion that it's sitting in with the rest of the kit, unless this was a creative decision?

The kick has a room reverb that is blended via parallel send. This is a creative decision as I wanted the kick to be more aggressive. I have checked all in mono and even on an iPhone speaker and it appears to translate well. If the kick was to be placed further in the depth of field, it would simply lose presence and punch.

(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: i felt the toms weren't panned according to the width in the OH's, you might want to check that out.

Noted, I will double check this.


(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: e.g. the bass guitar solo intro (and the rest of it) is immediately distracting...because it doesn't have ambiance, neither does the kick or the eguitar intro. an intro to any song is crucial because it sets the listener up for the rest of the song. woe betide anyone who mucks this up. to some extent we are constrained by the arrangement. or are we?

Your usage of the term 'distracting' is puzzling. Are you saying that you do not wish for your attention to be drawn to this particular aspect of the song? Dynamics is created by contrast. If you dislike the entire mix, that is an entirely different topic. It is important when providing critical feedback to be specific and also provide suggestions for a solution, rather than simply highlighting a subjective flaw, or being vague and/or obtuse.


(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: going back to the vocal from my previous post, if i may? there's an over-abundance of proximity in the tracking and it's frequency response is wrong for providing the illusion of real proximity. the sm7 is crippled by it's lack of treble, other than abundant sibilance!!!! it also makes many singers sound like they've got a bad cold and its application here is no exception. the sm57 and sm58's are similar nightmares!!!!! i don't know if this guy is just nasal as hell, has a cold, or whether it's the mic screwing him up, but it's not good. some attempt at getting air/treble into the mic by removing the pop filter but it never works. my solution is to throw the mic out the window and buy something more suitable for the job! lol.

This comment is unnecessary, rhetorical and somewhat offensive.


(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: switch your mix to mono and listen to the verse, the transition into the chorus, and the chorus itself. focus only on the eguitars. what goes wrong?

now listen to the balance of your instruments also in mono.....what sticks out, what gets buried?

??


(25-10-2015, 12:15 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: thanks indeed for helping us develop our listening skills as well as hear a different perspective than our own. keep it up Wink

I can't help but think that there is a condescending undertone with this comment. I also note that you have not uploaded a mix to this particular song, however you have been quite active in your responses and overall criticisms of others. Quite frankly, at the moment you are coming across as a kid wearing a black belt in a karate class who claims to have all the answers, yet never gets onto the mat to spar. The purpose of this educational forum is not to display technical puffery or chest-beating superiority, but simply to mix music and share with others with the ultimate aim of helping each other improve. None of us have all the answers and if you have ever worked in the professional audio industry (or any service based industry), you would know that the client is king.

I thank you for spending the obviously significant amount of time in listening to both my mixes and the others on this thread and genuinely encourage you to provide us all with an example of your recommendations. It is also important to note there is no malice intended with any of my comments and all comments are in the interest of the integrity of this forum. Thanks again.

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