Joe's Bar

[SonicTramp]

I agree with you mikej. It's the accumulations of a number of things that make up a good mix. Knowing about phase is the same as knowing the compressor/EQ/gate, etc. It's just a part of what we as mixers need to know. Sometimes knowing helps one to avoid creating problems in the first place. That contributes to the over all mix. If we eliminate all the things that are bad for our mixes, what is left? My answer is: the things that make our mixes good. Learning to prevent phase to happen is the same as learning to prevent pumping from the compressor. What hope do we have if we don't know the function of threshold, ratio, etc.? All we need is a willingness to sit down and settle it once and for all. For the sake of education. For the sake of knowledge. And, of course, for the sake of our sanity if not pleasure.

[Mixinthecloud]

"Better" is subjective. I've definitely flipped the phase on a bass amp track and it sounded "better" when blended with the DI. There were just cancellations that worked better than the reinforcement when they were in phase. Which they never really were to begin with because the bass mic was however many milliseconds later than the DI track.

Whether or not a mix works or is effective isn't solely based on if the kicks are in phase. The kick is generally pretty far down the list of what makes a mix work or not for most songs. If I did or didn't like a mix you did it had nothing to do with phase.

I feel like you might be overthinking things and that's not what's going to make a mix better. That's not to say don't be knowledgeable or put the work in but there's way more to what makes a mix work than what we've been going on about for 4 pages.

I'm sorry if this is frustrating. I suppose I'm not being helpful or not saying the right things. Which is fine. I'm happy to bow out. Good luck.

Cheers

I'll have to agree with Roy here. Better or 'right' in audio is completely subjective. Don't over-think it. Go with what feels right. It is good to know what is technically happening with phase, but it does not necessarily define right or wrong. It is YOUR ear that does that.

[SonicTramp]

I thought it ended but...yeah. Let me give it a last try. Let's just concentrate on what Roy said bc we have a disagreement here. Besides, it's fun to talk about things we do not understand, right? We both may walk out learning something.
Let's take the basses (amp/DI) as an example.
Here is what we know:
1. They are closely resemble each other but not identical
2. They will be out of phase. Physics dictates it. If we don't hear it, it's bc we don't hear it. It's still out of phase. This is where I dont agree with both of you about if it's good leave it bc it depends on whether or not you hear the phase. What if you don't hear it? Does it mean the phase cancellation doesn't happen?
3. Flipping polarity to correct phase is a misnomer and is operating on hope. We all know that bc polarity#phase, their definitions dictate what they are and what they do. Phase is a function of time. Polarity is a function of negative and positive in voltage. One has nothing to do with the other.

In conclusion: flipping polarity doesn't solve phase. If it does sound better it's something else, not phase. The mantra "if it sounds good, keep it" doesn't really work bc it depends on how good one's ears are. If one hears it, phase happens, if one doesn't hear it, phase still happens.

However, all is not lost. I have a way to solve it with almost complete certainty that phase will be corrected and it doesn't rely on one's listening skill, tho it does require one to know the definition of phase.

If phase is function of time then all we need to do is correct the timing. The bass DI will obviously get there before the amp, physics dictates that. Therefore, the DI is ahead of the amp. We zoom in and line them up and if the polarity is in the opposite then we flip the polarity. No guess work and better, no more phase. Fool proof!

Which one to line up to? The amp to the DI or the DI to the amp? Would it make a diff? Your thoughts? I think I have the answer, but I'll wait until then.

[mikej]

Yeah probably shouldn't drag this one out much longer, but oh go on then, I'll give this one  a shot...

<lots of stuff>

Yes I'd go along with that I think.

Which one to line up to? The amp to the DI or the DI to the amp? Would it make a diff? Your thoughts? I think I have the answer, but I'll wait until then.

I tend to pick the amp as I make the assumption that it is what the bass player is listening to.  Of course it is also possible that the bass player could be listening to the DI in a headphone mix.... 

It helps me to sleep at night if I imagine they are listening to the amp though .

Would it make a difference?

Well that really depends what the difference in timing is between the two signals. If there was like a second or two delay between the two it would affect the rhythm and groove of the song, but if the timing difference is substantially shorter then it probably won't make any practical difference.

Cheers!

Edit as I forgot to add:

What you said in the post above is technically correct (science side). I think what Roy is saying is that if you find you prefer the sound without the phase 'correction' then it's ok to go with that (artistic side).

See, in the example I posted earlier, I prefer 1 & 4, but you went for option 2. Now you could argue that either 1 or 4 are more technically correct regarding the signals being more 'in phase'. Generally if the signals are more in phase you will likely hear more bass. In my mix, I am using the kick as the lowest (sub) tone, so 1 & 4 artistically will be more suitable for my purpose. As you are using the bass as the lowest tone, and are looking for the beater to punch through the mix, I am thinking that is why you prefer 2, as it is more suitable for your purpose artistically. You might also have chosen option 1 & 4 but with the addition of some more aggressive high pass eq to take off the sub bass you don't want, and leaving more of the mids. Now you have some understanding of what is going on regarding phase - ultimately you can go with what you are happy with and what works for you in the mix.

[SonicTramp]

Agree on picking the amp. DI serves as a back up (mostly) therefore is secondary. And bc it is secondary it follows that the band would rather hear the amp than the DI. But this is pure speculation, not without logic tho.

I think it would make a diff bc the band's performance depends on listening to the amp instead.

If you can accept my reasons then now you can go to sleep. It does help in mixing tho seemingly unrelated. I have the same problem. But if you disagree, we can always duke it out, right? Maybe one or both of us learn more. It's all good.

[SonicTramp]

I see your argument. Here's mine. I didn't argue on the artistic side of mixing for a very simple reason: no standard to go by. It is whatever you call it, aka very subjective. That I agree. However, science is diff. We do have a standard that all must adhere to. Ok, so I pick 2, bc I liked it more, personal preference, but it could also be bc I couldnt hear phase. Cool, but I was still wrong if they were out of phase; my choice didn't make it in phase. Eventually, I will have to pay the penalty for not getting them in phase bc if I don't then why do we even talk about phase; it'll become a non-topic. Besides, what you gave me was just the drums, but we know that phase happens when sounds interact. If you brought in the bass, my choice might change but the choice becomes right on luck... Phase is still out there in Joe's bar drinking and smoking weed.

But why take a chance when you don't have to? Line them up and we can leave with absolute certainty that they will not, to themselves, be out of phase. We still have much more to take care of, right? Does efficiency still count? It takes however long it takes for me to line them up and leave knowing, with science protection, there is no chance for phase to happen. Roughly 10 seconds. That is my point. 100% sure is still better than 99%.

Now, if you're up to it, and it can be quite painful, can we discuss how EQ creates phase and how to avoid it? How phase happens when sounds interact? These questions, to me, are the real meat. The one we discuss is just an appetizer. Your call, man.

[mikej]

You're close to getting the hang of this. I also think there's a couple of things you've perhaps misunderstood about it all. I was hoping my last post would tie it all together for you in relation to your mix, but seems it hasn't quite. From your post above I think I understand what you are missing. I think I also need a bit of time to figure out how best to try and fill in that gap in understanding here.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Haha...take your time. I am always ready to jump ship. I don't mind learning from you.

[mikej]

I see your argument. Here's mine. I didn't argue on the artistic side of mixing for a very simple reason: no standard to go by. It is whatever you call it, aka very subjective. That I agree. However, science is diff. We do have a standard that all must adhere to. The 'science' side is not a standard to be adhered to as such, it is more a way of explaining why things are the way they are, if I can put it like that.


Ok, so I pick 2, bc I liked it more, personal preference, but it could also be bc I couldnt hear any phase issues.  (How would you tell if there were any phase issues - you would perhaps try inverting the phase of one of the tracks, or maybe zooming in to have a look at the waveforms, etc). . Cool, but I was still wrong if they were out of phase; my choice didn't make it in phase. Well, your artistic choice was the one channel 'out of phase' option. It could be argued that you are wrong scientifically speaking, but not wrong artistically speaking if you like the sound. Eventually, I will have to pay the penalty for not getting them in phase The only 'penalty' as such is if you don't like the resulting sound bc if I don't then why do we even talk about phase it's so we can describe the relationship between the two waveforms and the resulting sound; it'll become a non-topic. Besides, what you gave me was just the drums, but we know that phase happens when sounds interact. We know that the resulting sound can change when the two waveforms are summed together due to differences in phase. If you brought in the bass, my artistic choice might change but the choice becomes right on luck...depends on how I want the sound to fit in the mix.

But why take a chance when you don't have to? Line them up and we can leave with absolute certainty that they will not, to themselves, be out of phase. We still have much more to take care of, right? Does efficiency still count? It takes however long it takes for me to line them up and leave knowing, with science protection, there is no chance for phase to happen. that the two tracks are in phase Roughly 10 seconds. That is my point. 100% sure is still better than 99%. This is a valid option if you want to be sure the two tracks are in phase.  Certainly taking a look at the waveforms will give you some idea of what is going on.

Now, if you're up to it, and it can be quite painful, can we discuss how EQ creates phase and how to avoid it? How phase happens when sounds interact? These questions, to me, are the real meat. The one we discuss is just an appetizer. Your call, man. Hah, though we'd already covered that one....  Did you check out all those links I pm'd you a while back?

Does this work for the time being?

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

I still have my shield and sword. Just need to gather some thoughts. I see some holes in it. I did check some of the links you sent me, and tbh, I felt such a jerk not thanking you for doing that. My bad. If I watched and read them and understood, I wouldn't be here asking right? I still many questions. I am just a dummy, man. It takes time for me to understand. But I will come back on this. Thanks