Dark Ride: 'Hammer Down'

[SonicTramp]

It only works if we have a bunch of people to participate. That is to prevent skewed opinions due to those many variations. Here, number counts. For example, I say my bass is just perfect; you say no, too loud. That leaves me with only 2 choices: to lower it or to leave it alone. Let's do the only choice, to lower it. in order to have a high enough level of confidence to make that move I, first, have to consider a few things: you know what you are saying with complete confidence and that I can trust your judgement, your monitor system is industry standard, your room is perfectly tuned, and you are completely impartial. Would I be unreasonable to say that I cannot answer those questions confidently? BUT they will be put to rest if enough people second your opinion; the more people agreeing with you the clearer the answers would be. That is the only way, imo, for us to learn our room and sit our instruments where they would translate to many systems. As you can see, this type of exercise can only be obtained with large number of reliable and serious participants.

You're the mod, man. You can rally people together and put this to rest. If you were to form a group to help each other identify frequency balance, volume balance, and stereo balance in their rooms so that they have a better idea of what condition they mix in, I'd be the first to join. This type of data gathering need big number. The bigger the more accurate. Just an idea.

[mikej]

Hi,

Handily, Mike Senior already created a mixing forum for such a purpose .

The thing really is to learn your own monitors and room and how it translates. Forum comments do help with this. In this case, I think you can reference your rough mix with mine and also the Library mix too if you like. Listening on different headphones, and other systems can help too. I maybe can post some more thoughts on this later, but it will be only things that I think worked for me. My room and speakers are far from perfect (like most of my mixes actually).

Yeah I do get what you're saying . It does kind of depend on whether you trust my judgement or not, and it's not always that great. Although to be honest with this track I feel it's really Blitzzz's judgement that counts.

Really, the whole purpose of suggesting the exercise is that I think you can do a better mix without worrying about doing any additional processing. Give it a go and see what happens. I just feel you might get something out of giving it a try. Not worrying about additional processing means that you really focus on the relative volume level and panning of each track. That's my point really. I feel it's a good thing to practice, and this track is ideal for it as the raw tracks are pretty good.

I must admit I was quite surprised at how well my rough mix came out. You can also check your mix against my rough mix, and also the library mix. I used the library mix as a guide for my effort. It's just something I did that I thought might help you get where you want to be. Entirely up to you whether you want to give it a shot, or not.

If you do post a mix, I'll repost my rough mix from a few pages back below it, and we'll see if we pick up any comments from others.

I'm sure there's plenty of people viewing this thread that haven't commented yet that might have an opinion. I doubt it's just you, me and Blitzzz that have given this thread over a thousand views so far!

Quick edit to add that sometimes I think people might be afraid to post an opinion in case they are deemed to be 'wrong' but I see it more as a chance for discussion and exchanging of ideas to help each other get better mixes, as per this whole thread really.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Really. I thought the world died and the thousand count is just an optical illusion. Either that or we have a lot of time on our hands for us 3 to reach such a large number. Yup, just us 2 and barely Blitzzz. I guess the 3 Zs in his nick is for sleeping. And since only 3 of us are alive, if he wakes up and tells me that, dude, the bass is loud then that would be 66%, 2 out of 3 is convincing enough. Number counts.

I don't mean to say I didn't trust you. I just want to make sure that others agree too, a second opinion, if you will. Because if I acted on it I'd be committing "hasty generalization," a logical fallacy. Experience tells me to err on the side of caution, to wait for more info, data, but still keep an ear out for it as a precaution, not dismissing it. I respect your opinion.

Sure. I'll try to do it best i can with only panning and volume balance and see. Thanks

[mikej]

Really. I thought the world died and the thousand count is just an optical illusion. Either that or we have a lot of time on our hands for us 3 to reach such a large number. Yup, just us 2 and barely Blitzzz. I guess the 3 Zs in his nick is for sleeping. And since only 3 of us are alive, if he wakes up and tells me that, dude, the bass is loud then that would be 66%, 2 out of 3 is convincing enough. Number counts.

I don't mean to say I didn't trust you. I just want to make sure that others agree too, a second opinion, if you will. Because if I acted on it I'd be committing "hasty generalization," a logical fallacy. Experience tells me to err on the side of caution, to wait for more info, data, but still keep an ear out for it as a precaution, not dismissing it. I respect your opinion.

Nah, I'm saying that I agree - you need to be happy that the bass level is right yourself. Of course you take the opinions of others into account and either agree or disagree (which is fine - I think sometimes people on the forum forget that it's ok to disagree with an opinion too ). Ultimately you need to get to a point where you are happy and confident with your mix, and hopefully the majority of listeners will agree it's a good mix too, if everything works out.  

One tip that might help settle on a mix balance is to play the mix through with say just the drums and bass, then just the vocal and bass, etc.  Just pick a couple of tracks at random and see how you feel they sit together.

Sure. I'll try to do it best i can with only panning and volume balance and see. Thanks

I'd also say that it's worth giving yourself a decent break to double check the mix balance before posting, like maybe checking it again the next day or something, which gives the ears a chance to reset.

I recall the only track you might have difficultly settling on a level is the vocal as I think it is a bit quieter in some sections than others.  I picked a level that mostly works for the majority of the track.  The idea is that this might be something to deal with in the next round, so to speak.

Cheers!

[mikej]

Hi!

I had a little time to have a quick look at the tracks in the session -

I'm not seeing any stereo guitar tracks**. The main rhythm guitar tracks I have are 13_ElecGtr01 and the double, which is 14_ElecGtr02. Both play together from the start (after the synth intro), and I have them panned hard left + right. 15_ELectGtr03 is the one that comes in before the verse.

Cheers!

**Edit: Oh, not strictly true - I've just spotted that 20_ElecGtr10 and 21_ElecGtr11 are stereo tracks, but they don't come in until the 2nd half of the song.

[SonicTramp]

I downloaded the file again and checked the tracks. I have 11 guitar tracks with 2 stereo (lead guitars). Track count is 40, which is correct according to the info posted. I have the guitars both play right after the synth now. Looks good now, I think. Thanks for bringing it up. I'll work on it now. Thanks.

** Here it is. All I did was HP the snare (80Hz), rhythm guitars (HP@82Hz, LP @ 13kHz), bass (HP @41Hz, LP @ 10kHz). No other EQ moves, just strictly HP/LP.

*** I don't know why they recorded the solo in stereo. Most of the time I center the guitar solo even if they recorded in stereo. What would be the advantage of recording in stereo when knowing that the mixer's gonna pan it to the side anyway? 2 stereo rhythm guitars, for example, not in this song but in others.

[mikej]

Hi,

Awesome job! That's sounding really good and much better balanced to me.

Regarding stereo tracks in sessions - I think it largely depends on the effects chain used for the part.  It sometimes might be the case that stereo tracks are actually dual mono  - you can check this by putting one side out of phase and see if it cancels out to silence.

Ok, next steps are crucial, but have to kind of tread carefully from here. It's useful to take a backup of the session at this point so you can always refer back to it, or even start over from this point again if required.

Some thoughts of things that might be worth considering to do before adding any further processing:

18 secs - maybe automate up the solo a bit, also from around 3:20.  Perhaps high pass the kick just a touch and add an automated low shelf when the blast beats hit. You can automate an eq, or maybe just drop the blast beats on another channel. Maybe automate up the vocal a touch around 3:55, etc.

Now that the initial balance is there, for me the main thing to keep an eye on is the mix balance as you add more processing.  As you add eq and compression, etc. you might find you are also adding a bit too much gain to a track, which can start to throw the balance off. I find it's useful to toggle the bypass of each effect added to ensure you are not adding too much gain alongside the processing.  You basically just want to start gently enhancing what you've already got, if that makes sense?

I feel you might be ok going forward from this point now.  It's just a case of getting the mix from here to the library mix....

Do give me a shout though should you want any info regarding next steps, or anything like that.  I'm no expert, but I'd be happy to dig in to my mix of this and let you know what I did if you do have any questions.

Cheers!

[SonicTramp]

Thanks, man. I did pull back a bit on the snare and bass since you pointed them out previously. Sure, I do make my moves carefully and understand that processors can alter the sounds in many ways that can affect our hearing. Most times when I started to hear it it's already too late and too much, but the hearing is getting finer as time goes by. One thing I must mention, and thanking you for it, is you, in a way, force me to be careful, and in the process I learn a lot more. I am always grateful for that.

I will let you know if I need any additional info on the mix. Right now I want to try it myself. I don't have a lot of ideas but I know I want to make the snare a bit snappier, the kick/bass a bit shorter, the guitars crunchier, and some unmasking. That would be my next round. I guess I want to concentrate on the important elements first. To get the juice going, so to speak. Thanks, man, for sparing the time.



***It took me a while to get it where I wanted. All I did was working on the EQ more, mostly unmasking, and then strapped in a comp to control the dynamics and to get all the instruments to sit where they should (very gentle, most of them hitting around 1- 1 1/2dBs in GR). Finally, I did paralleled the snare, kick, guitars, vocals. I have a comp and an EQ on the mix buss but do very little work. Next I'll work on the vocals more and then FX. The instruments in the mix seem to be stable and cleaner sounding to me, so yeah, onto the next step.

[SonicTramp]

I worked on it a bit to get ready for fx. I use 2 stereo delay (one of them is used very briefly) and 1 reverb, trying to keep it simple. It's a rock song so I guess we don't need those fancy delay all over the place. I did it to this song not bc of having ear candy but for different purpose: I feel that with a long delay the part brings up the tension and quickly resolves in the next part. That's my attempt to "force" a reaction from the listeners, I learned that here from Blitzzz. If you don't get it in this mix then, well, it's always clumsy at first, right? My learning mixing is mostly a heuristic one, trial and error, mostly errors. But I seek shelter from great one, "the man who never made mistakes is a man who never tried anything" (Albert Einstein) or something to that effect.

So yeah, man, tell me what you think. Don't worry about making me feel bad. My gf beats you to it. She whipped me quite adequately already. I worry more about sticks and stones. Those actually hurt. OR, and if you think I can be of some help, we can do a trade. You tell me what you think of my mix (mostly what you don't like about it, even subjectively) and I'll tell you about yours. Fair enough? *super important note: NO manhood waving. We learn nothing when that happens. Just a good ol' honest to goodness opinion is good enough. I still hope you like my mix tho. Thanks.

[mikej]

Hi!

Well, I still like the mix. It doesn't seem to me like you've overcooked the effects, I think they are sitting in the track ok. I'm listening back on headphones right now. It really comes across to me that you are now really taking the overall balance into account and are approaching the mix with consideration.

I only have a couple of notes for your latest:

I like the way the vocal volume changes for each section, and I would keep that as is pretty much. Vocal levels are a bit subjective. My gut feeling though is that the vocal does perhaps end up being a little too out front at it's loudest, compared to the guitars and drums. I would try maybe dropping the vocal fader perhaps 0.5 db or so and see if the whole thing sits just a little better overall? Watch the vocal level towards the very end of the track though, the vocal could come up 0.5db or something for the very last bit - around the 4:22 mark, to keep the relative balance with the instruments.

The other thing is I think some of the guitar solos and licks could come up a touch. Certainly the guitar runs at 2:58, 3:23, 3:33 kind of disappear and I think for me could do with a little bit of automation to bring them back into the spotlight.

You've really made great progress here.

Cheers!