02-03-2015, 03:12 AM
Thanks for the reply, I think we can make some interesting discussion out of it since we are coming from two opposite points of view. And that's why I decided to post here, because I know I'm going against the grain of what's considered popular, professional, etc in modern times and it's a discussion worth having whether you liked what I did or not.
Maybe what I was trying to do here wasn't completely communicated as well as I'd like. Of course I've tried stock plugins, etc. I think that's fine for what any modern minded producer is going for. If you want a dryer, clean mix that has minimal fx, stock plugs will do fine. Certain character sounds cannot be created with stock plugs. Plus if you look at the options available on something like a Lexicon or Wave Arts reverb vs D-verb, it's quite different. It's definitely incorrect to assume I just bought a bunch of plugs looking for a magic bullet. What I actually did was extensively test stock plugs and all kinds of 3rd party ones on my own vocal covers in an attempt to see what could get me certain sounds. I've definitely read lots of articles on mixing, mastering, audio, etc for years. Even as a listener I spent a lot of time doing that.
As for the eq. Of course I listen with my ears. Blending vocal tracks I recorded in an untreated room using an sm7 or RE320 direct into a Zoom R16 is a real pain because often I'm using a stereo instrumental from youtube and have to make sure the frequencies don't start clashing, etc. I also have my own originals I've used to experiment with mastering on. They already sound about 90% close to where I'd like them with the quick mix the engineer threw together. So I'm just making some eq moves and trying to see where maybe I could add a character effect here and there to parts of the track. But I've kinda put the mastering stuff on the back burner.
Sound on sound is a favorite site of mine, but again, I'm not finding I like the mixing style of the guy who does the mix rescue judging by the track I heard. Believe it was from May 2011. The song has what people on the Steve Hoffman forums refer to as a "nuked" waveform. Not that I judge by sight alone. There was a lot I hated about his remix, but no need to type it all in detail here.
I noticed your mix also has a nuked waveform with too much compression and limiting for my tastes, but it is maybe about 80% up to par with the Killswitch track you reference IMO. A lot of SH posters, including audio pros, think that nuking is very bad technique in the first place. There's actually not much I like about that full preview mix. But, when I apply my own tastes, which seem to be total opposite of what's done to the full preview mix, I like the song quite a bit more.
Sometimes I can deal with nuked stuff, most of the time not. A lot of mixes have been ruined by abuse of the L2. Nuked waveforms like Spaghetti Incident or Master of the Rings seem more tolerable to me, but still not really an ideal. Perhaps the L2 enabling people to push things further is a problem. I've heard the L1 was a lot better. Established mastering engineer Barry Diament no longer works for the majors because he refused to get into all this loudness war stuff. He mastered a lot of legendary albums like Appetite for Destruction, South of Heaven, Danzig S/T, GNR Lies, Under Lock and Key, the Uzi Suicide Hanoi Rocks cds, Too Fast For Love, and Back in Black.
I find modern, professional production, mixing, mastering largely unlistenable. Especially modern Metal ala Killswitch Engage. I would take Welcome to Hell, Show No Mercy, Killing Is My Business, Night of the Stormrider, The New Order, Deicide S/T or just about any sort of "bad" production from 30+ years ago over what's become the Andy Sneap inspired standard. Even Andy's work has gotten a lot worse since the days of Dead Heart and The Gathering. Yeah, I have very little interest in sounding modern whether it's Metal or what's popular at the Grammy's. I like CLA's plugs, but I don't like the sound of albums he's been associated with like Shinedown. That was some of the most flat, lifeless, overcompressed rock I ever heard.
Is there really anyone to learn from who teaches classic Metal mixing? Guys like Chris Tsangarides and Neil Kernon haven't produced anything I thought sounded good in almost two decades if I'm getting my dates right. Both seem to have swapped out their individuality in favor of being modern and trendy. Whether they wanted to or were told to produce that way I have no idea. Michael Wagener no longer mixes like he did for Megadeth, Skid Row, Dokken, etc. Not even close. Everywhere I go online that offers mixing tips, it seems that they think the student's end goal is to create mixes and masterings that sound like modern stuff. As if the work done on Lady Gaga or your average Century Media album is some kind of perfect, objective standard. Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone when Axl Rose has been pretty much the only major artist to turn down loudness war mastering.
I'm curious about your tastes. Would you prefer a mix like on the modern UDO stuff or Balls to the Wall? Final Frontier or Killers? In the case of extreme bands, like Emperor, I would take Anthems over the sterile Prometheus any day. I'm assuming you've heard some metal classics but let me know about other things if you're not that familiar.
Are multi tracks something you've spent a lot of time listening to? I've done extensive listening to multi tracks from rock band, guitar hero, and all the ones I've bought from jammit.com. What I find is that once you combine the 4 or 5 multis, it basically sounds exactly like the album. To me that suggests there wasn't a whole lot demanded of the mix and mastering engineers in terms of big moves, that a lot of the fx an stuff were printed in the tracking process. I believe there's modern stuff on jammit like Lamb of God and Bullet for my Valentine. Jammit transfers from original sources, but I'm not sure exactly if they treat the audio. They certainly left enough obvious tape damage in Dokken's In My Dreams.
How are you defining professionally mixed? I have thousands of cds and I can find stuff with elements of what I did here. And how many unmastered professional tracks from the last 30 years have you heard? When I hear samples of work done by studios around here, it generally all sounds sterile, thin, and loud. That's a big reason I started doing my own stuff. I hadn't heard samples I liked enough from any local studio, even the ones who claim to have worked with big name clients. And within their samples, I noticed them applying pretty much the same mix ideas across different styles. Everything was very minimal, probably because there wasn't time to tweak a bunch of fx chains.
There's some stuff in your mix that got obscured in mine that I want to bring out in the future. When comparing back to back, they almost sound like two different bands. There's a few parts where I want to change the automation. It would definitely be a lot easier if I did less, but that's not what I was interested in. Ultimately there aren't too many objective standards. There are people who think the original So Far So Good So What sounds horrendous, but it's one of my favorites. When Mustaine remixed it, I thought it sucked the life and soul outta the album. My end goal is to craft styles that can bring back some of the older methods with new additions.
Thanks again for replying Blitzzz, consider me a fan of Dark Ride and I will glady recommend your work to any hard rock or Metal fan.
Maybe what I was trying to do here wasn't completely communicated as well as I'd like. Of course I've tried stock plugins, etc. I think that's fine for what any modern minded producer is going for. If you want a dryer, clean mix that has minimal fx, stock plugs will do fine. Certain character sounds cannot be created with stock plugs. Plus if you look at the options available on something like a Lexicon or Wave Arts reverb vs D-verb, it's quite different. It's definitely incorrect to assume I just bought a bunch of plugs looking for a magic bullet. What I actually did was extensively test stock plugs and all kinds of 3rd party ones on my own vocal covers in an attempt to see what could get me certain sounds. I've definitely read lots of articles on mixing, mastering, audio, etc for years. Even as a listener I spent a lot of time doing that.
As for the eq. Of course I listen with my ears. Blending vocal tracks I recorded in an untreated room using an sm7 or RE320 direct into a Zoom R16 is a real pain because often I'm using a stereo instrumental from youtube and have to make sure the frequencies don't start clashing, etc. I also have my own originals I've used to experiment with mastering on. They already sound about 90% close to where I'd like them with the quick mix the engineer threw together. So I'm just making some eq moves and trying to see where maybe I could add a character effect here and there to parts of the track. But I've kinda put the mastering stuff on the back burner.
Sound on sound is a favorite site of mine, but again, I'm not finding I like the mixing style of the guy who does the mix rescue judging by the track I heard. Believe it was from May 2011. The song has what people on the Steve Hoffman forums refer to as a "nuked" waveform. Not that I judge by sight alone. There was a lot I hated about his remix, but no need to type it all in detail here.
I noticed your mix also has a nuked waveform with too much compression and limiting for my tastes, but it is maybe about 80% up to par with the Killswitch track you reference IMO. A lot of SH posters, including audio pros, think that nuking is very bad technique in the first place. There's actually not much I like about that full preview mix. But, when I apply my own tastes, which seem to be total opposite of what's done to the full preview mix, I like the song quite a bit more.
Sometimes I can deal with nuked stuff, most of the time not. A lot of mixes have been ruined by abuse of the L2. Nuked waveforms like Spaghetti Incident or Master of the Rings seem more tolerable to me, but still not really an ideal. Perhaps the L2 enabling people to push things further is a problem. I've heard the L1 was a lot better. Established mastering engineer Barry Diament no longer works for the majors because he refused to get into all this loudness war stuff. He mastered a lot of legendary albums like Appetite for Destruction, South of Heaven, Danzig S/T, GNR Lies, Under Lock and Key, the Uzi Suicide Hanoi Rocks cds, Too Fast For Love, and Back in Black.
I find modern, professional production, mixing, mastering largely unlistenable. Especially modern Metal ala Killswitch Engage. I would take Welcome to Hell, Show No Mercy, Killing Is My Business, Night of the Stormrider, The New Order, Deicide S/T or just about any sort of "bad" production from 30+ years ago over what's become the Andy Sneap inspired standard. Even Andy's work has gotten a lot worse since the days of Dead Heart and The Gathering. Yeah, I have very little interest in sounding modern whether it's Metal or what's popular at the Grammy's. I like CLA's plugs, but I don't like the sound of albums he's been associated with like Shinedown. That was some of the most flat, lifeless, overcompressed rock I ever heard.
Is there really anyone to learn from who teaches classic Metal mixing? Guys like Chris Tsangarides and Neil Kernon haven't produced anything I thought sounded good in almost two decades if I'm getting my dates right. Both seem to have swapped out their individuality in favor of being modern and trendy. Whether they wanted to or were told to produce that way I have no idea. Michael Wagener no longer mixes like he did for Megadeth, Skid Row, Dokken, etc. Not even close. Everywhere I go online that offers mixing tips, it seems that they think the student's end goal is to create mixes and masterings that sound like modern stuff. As if the work done on Lady Gaga or your average Century Media album is some kind of perfect, objective standard. Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone when Axl Rose has been pretty much the only major artist to turn down loudness war mastering.
I'm curious about your tastes. Would you prefer a mix like on the modern UDO stuff or Balls to the Wall? Final Frontier or Killers? In the case of extreme bands, like Emperor, I would take Anthems over the sterile Prometheus any day. I'm assuming you've heard some metal classics but let me know about other things if you're not that familiar.
Are multi tracks something you've spent a lot of time listening to? I've done extensive listening to multi tracks from rock band, guitar hero, and all the ones I've bought from jammit.com. What I find is that once you combine the 4 or 5 multis, it basically sounds exactly like the album. To me that suggests there wasn't a whole lot demanded of the mix and mastering engineers in terms of big moves, that a lot of the fx an stuff were printed in the tracking process. I believe there's modern stuff on jammit like Lamb of God and Bullet for my Valentine. Jammit transfers from original sources, but I'm not sure exactly if they treat the audio. They certainly left enough obvious tape damage in Dokken's In My Dreams.
How are you defining professionally mixed? I have thousands of cds and I can find stuff with elements of what I did here. And how many unmastered professional tracks from the last 30 years have you heard? When I hear samples of work done by studios around here, it generally all sounds sterile, thin, and loud. That's a big reason I started doing my own stuff. I hadn't heard samples I liked enough from any local studio, even the ones who claim to have worked with big name clients. And within their samples, I noticed them applying pretty much the same mix ideas across different styles. Everything was very minimal, probably because there wasn't time to tweak a bunch of fx chains.
There's some stuff in your mix that got obscured in mine that I want to bring out in the future. When comparing back to back, they almost sound like two different bands. There's a few parts where I want to change the automation. It would definitely be a lot easier if I did less, but that's not what I was interested in. Ultimately there aren't too many objective standards. There are people who think the original So Far So Good So What sounds horrendous, but it's one of my favorites. When Mustaine remixed it, I thought it sucked the life and soul outta the album. My end goal is to craft styles that can bring back some of the older methods with new additions.
Thanks again for replying Blitzzz, consider me a fan of Dark Ride and I will glady recommend your work to any hard rock or Metal fan.