06-02-2015, 01:34 AM
You bring up a lot of points that ought to be considered indeed and the thought process is quite interesting and not that different than what I've done for some mixes.
However, as my mix is now up. I have to admit I did take a much more vanilla approach and instead focused on to make it work with minimal intervention on my part to the structure of the song as I honestly felt there was nothing immediately wrong with it. Perhaps because I come from an electronic background I don't see much of a problem with dropping new instruments in at will. Regardless of the headache it may cause the guy mixing it.
That is all well and fine. But at least to me it seemed very clear the intention of the rhodes in both the verse and chorus sections and it really comes down to how the lyrics are interpreted no? To me the whole thing is a complete juxtaposition of elements and as such I felt that the extreme chaotic qualities are exactly what the song called for. Though I do agree that the rhodes in the chorus needed a big helping hand of aggressive processing to make it fit.
Well I think we took the application of the interpretation differently. To me that indicates a shift in the direction the song will take. That is all. Granted I would have preferred a shift that instead of going wubby dub dub went more metal or classic rock crescendo and to me would make more sense. However, that was not the case. Instead we were faced with a change that indicates a big shift in the composition. You did just that. How you and I did that is entirely different. Which is better? Well to be honest only the artist can really say. Both approaches have their own merits IMO.
Hey you did do an excellent job of highlighting certain points and I have hesitation in stating that. Now, when I said a bit "too much" what I meant was that it was kind of distracting to the actual arrangement. Not the lyrical content. I understand why you did it, but I just felt it could have been notched down slightly and still conveyed the feeling you were going for.
Juxtapose it. I agree that choruses are overly hyped in modern tracks. No doubt. But to me it really supporting the lyrical content is to juxtapose it. The thing I didn't understand is why you decided to amp down the energy rather than amp it up. Reading your response though it makes sense why you did what you did. Now, I did push up the chorus a lot in my mix. But I notched the verses and breakdown quite a bit in comparison. Two different approaches.
That makes sense. I was just commenting on how it felt naked. But again after reading more about your approach from a philosophical perspective it makes sense.
Pretty much. I did a different approach than yourself, but that does not in anyway say either is right nor wrong.
See, I get where you're coming from. I really do. However, to me it really seemed that if you notched down the verses and breakdown and turned the chorus up it works plenty fine. The arrangement is actually quite sparse compared to some things I've mixed and finding places for things was not all that difficult.
I think you'll be disappointed in my approach. The only editing I really did was to move a crash around. As I said I really saw no gain in altering in the arrangement. But you did an excellent job which to me says that you're probably better at composition than myself lol.
I think the biggest thing is that we have a fundamentally and philosophical difference in the way we approach mixes. At least in the application of our interpretations.
However, as my mix is now up. I have to admit I did take a much more vanilla approach and instead focused on to make it work with minimal intervention on my part to the structure of the song as I honestly felt there was nothing immediately wrong with it. Perhaps because I come from an electronic background I don't see much of a problem with dropping new instruments in at will. Regardless of the headache it may cause the guy mixing it.
Quote:the instrument was present in the tracking ALL THE WAY THROUGH, even in the chorus - ESPECIALLY the chorus
That is all well and fine. But at least to me it seemed very clear the intention of the rhodes in both the verse and chorus sections and it really comes down to how the lyrics are interpreted no? To me the whole thing is a complete juxtaposition of elements and as such I felt that the extreme chaotic qualities are exactly what the song called for. Though I do agree that the rhodes in the chorus needed a big helping hand of aggressive processing to make it fit.
Quote:by the way, what do you think he means by "Freedom is on the other side"? what is the "other side" in the song's context...and do you think given this lyric that the way i've mixed the Rodes departs from this context or supports it?
Well I think we took the application of the interpretation differently. To me that indicates a shift in the direction the song will take. That is all. Granted I would have preferred a shift that instead of going wubby dub dub went more metal or classic rock crescendo and to me would make more sense. However, that was not the case. Instead we were faced with a change that indicates a big shift in the composition. You did just that. How you and I did that is entirely different. Which is better? Well to be honest only the artist can really say. Both approaches have their own merits IMO.
Quote:thanks...there's some heavy technical stuff here. my intention was to help make it express the lyric.....as well as to contribute to the song's sonic engagement which was fresh and different to "the norm". as it was presented in the tracking, the audio was nothing less than manic in the stereo field. i can understand how some might find my constrained approach still somewhat overbearing, but it's a subjective thing and i think it's nowhere near "too much" compared to the implied content in the original tracking.
Hey you did do an excellent job of highlighting certain points and I have hesitation in stating that. Now, when I said a bit "too much" what I meant was that it was kind of distracting to the actual arrangement. Not the lyrical content. I understand why you did it, but I just felt it could have been notched down slightly and still conveyed the feeling you were going for.
Quote:the problem fundamentally, is that we are all conditioned to hearing vamped-up choruses...and this didn't have a vamp in the chorus's arrangement....quite the opposite, but was intentional? if it was, i think that's a high-risk strategy....because if the audience expects a vamp and doesn't get one, it's over, damage done no matter what's going on lyrically. to suggest for one moment that simply cranking up the kick in a beatless chorus will save the day, or worse, bring attention to a weak arrangement by cranking the chorus's level up by a hamfisted 4LU's (Spede's approach, complete with 1.5dB of clipping no less) and losing all dynamics into the bargain, won't make a weak arrangement transform into a less than weak one. we gotta try and do something to save the day, but what, other than remix it?
Juxtapose it. I agree that choruses are overly hyped in modern tracks. No doubt. But to me it really supporting the lyrical content is to juxtapose it. The thing I didn't understand is why you decided to amp down the energy rather than amp it up. Reading your response though it makes sense why you did what you did. Now, I did push up the chorus a lot in my mix. But I notched the verses and breakdown quite a bit in comparison. Two different approaches.
Quote:too cliche mate. i liked the contrasting abruptness which came from all the ambiance in the run-up to the ending. it supported the lyric and the fact that ".....I've just overdosed.....on you". if you overdose, that's it. it was intended to make an impact, that's why you noticed it (thanks for that); but i think you missed the subtle subconscious message of it's abruptness and what this was expressing......?
That makes sense. I was just commenting on how it felt naked. But again after reading more about your approach from a philosophical perspective it makes sense.
Quote:the point being the concept of the song and the instrumental necessities to help communicate the lyric?
Pretty much. I did a different approach than yourself, but that does not in anyway say either is right nor wrong.
Quote:i think the arrangement was a problem personally. simply letting things breathe as you suggest, or cranking the chorus up and making a kick thump isn't going to change anything here and i think change is needed, the Rhodes being a case in point for the reasons i've discussed. it's akin to moving deckchairs around on the Titanic otherwise, but then, what isn't here? my approach to making the vocal the real focus and the application of FX is a different one to other's herein, given the lack of instrumental shove and push which one normally traditionally expects of a chorus. i think this song required a different approach by it's inference....but that's me.
See, I get where you're coming from. I really do. However, to me it really seemed that if you notched down the verses and breakdown and turned the chorus up it works plenty fine. The arrangement is actually quite sparse compared to some things I've mixed and finding places for things was not all that difficult.
Quote:many thanks for sharing them; appreciated. i'm looking forward to hearing your vision and exploring your approach.
I think you'll be disappointed in my approach. The only editing I really did was to move a crash around. As I said I really saw no gain in altering in the arrangement. But you did an excellent job which to me says that you're probably better at composition than myself lol.
I think the biggest thing is that we have a fundamentally and philosophical difference in the way we approach mixes. At least in the application of our interpretations.