07-01-2023, 02:52 PM
Hi!
As you know I am far from a mixing expert so I'm not going to offer up any criticism as such. Listening through your mixes so far, I do have some thoughts based on my own struggles with mixing that I thought might be worth passing on, in case they are of any use to you.
Not sure I can put things in a useful order and this post might turn out to be quite long and rambling, but I'll try to give it a shot. I hope some of my thoughts might have some merit, but your mileage may vary, as they say.
I hope you don't mind the long post, but I feel it might be a bit more use here than posting the usual 'nice mix / too much bass' kind of a thing
.
First off, I think it is well worth checking out one of the mixes Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes. It's a good mix and I think it really does cover off everything quite well and is a good benchmark to aim for: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...?tid=18589. (I think mix 3 mastered is the one).
Quick aside - I know some people want to put their own creative spin on mixes so to speak - and I do get that. Personally if I like the library mix, I figure I might as well try for that for a start (learning), as I figure I likely won't be able to come close to matching it, let alone beat it (which is the ultimate goal of course). Over time you might reference the library mix or other commercial mixes and with a bit of luck you might find on the odd occasion you might find that maybe are not so far off as you think. I also think you'll kind of add your own taste to things anyway.
I find mix referencing is really quite brutal to the old ego, but I feel that's the real competition. I know I go on about mix referencing, but for me how else do you know if you are in the ball park, or if you've even got to the car park?
Before I forget, I think you made a few comments regarding compression earlier. I recall this video from Gregory Scott is pretty good and perhaps might be of some help? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XGXz6SHco. (Yeah I know everyone is selling something on Youtube, all the same there's some really good info there I think, compared to a lot of videos out there).
Another video I thought quite good is the Dave Pensado interview with Chris Lord Alge. I recall there's some good compression tips at the end. There's also lots of seemingly small things that Chris mentions in passing during the course of the interview that I found really helpful too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqZHOrj1VjQ
My go to channel compressor is an 1176 style, and I found it useful to set up a few of my own presets as starting points, like slow attack/fast release for drums, fast attack/fast release or whatever for vocals etc. Setting up a few starting presets like this might help with whatever your favorite compressors are.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel I'm hearing that you've got a definite end goal in mind, but maybe are not quite managing to hit the mark as you want as yet. I'm also contractually obliged at this point to mention here that it's well worth picking up Mike Senior's book if you haven't got a copy already.
Ok, I think the main thing I am hearing in your mixes is that you are moving in the right direction, but I feel you might be kind of over processing and pushing everything a bit too much from the start, so my suggestion would be to try not to force the end result too early, and to slowly work towards it, step by step.
It might help to start by giving yourself plenty of mix headroom. Turn up the volume on your audio interface, and trim the channels down a bit. You can always gain up and limit the master bus at the end, no problem.
Start with getting a basic volume balance and sorting out the panning. I find I tend to start with the drums and vocals, then I bring up the guitars, etc around them. Panning can help a lot with freq separation too - panning the guitars wide also leaves space for the vocals up the middle for example. Next move on to eq and compression as needed, and then on to mix bus compression and automation. Maybe go for the final limiting and loudness at the end as a separate finalizing stage.
As part of my template I've set up a vca fader for all drums, all lead vocals, all backing vocals, all guitars, etc so I can easily change the relative volume of each group at any time and see what seems to work best. I usually find I have the drums too quiet by the time I get to the end of processing a mix, so with the vca faders I can easily grab everything but the drums and bring everything else down a few db... as opposed to finding I've run out of headroom to push the drums up. You could just use the bus faders, but I find it handy to set up a row of vca's, kind of like I imagine the group faders are on an SSL. Also if you find you need a bit more headroom at any time, you can just bring down all the vca faders a touch.
I think it's worth saying now that it's no bad thing to be experimenting and trying different things as you are. Even if you are not quite get the results you want right now, I found the things you find out by experimenting do actually turn out to be quite useful for those times when you do need to pull something out the bag to give something a bit of an extra push to cut through.
(Might not be a need to gate all the things though!),
Learning what not do to is equally as important as learning what works, although not as immediately rewarding of course. I know I spend far too much time making notes on what not to do to a mix ever again....
If you listen to the mix I pointed out at the start - for me I feel a lot of the power of the mix is created by the relative balance of the instruments (hence my vca fader set up), as opposed to heavily limiting and eq'ing each part right off the bat. There's a lot of automation going on in that mix too, which gives contrast and focus to different elements in each section at different times as the mix progresses.
If you do things in stages, you might find you'll kind of figure out where you need to add limiting here and there to get the odd thing to sit where you want in the mix.
Balance wise, I find it helps to plan out which parts you want to be at the front of the mix and be highlighted and which parts can sit more in the background. Maybe try starting out with the key elements for each section up front, and fitting everything else around them.
Same as volume balance, frequency balance is kind of a similar sort of thing. Check out the library mix, etc and figure out which are the important frequencies of each part that need to cut though, and what is less important, and kind of plan out where you feel things should sit.
Is it important that the low end of the kick cuts through the mix, or is it more like 3k that is actually cutting through? Is the body of the guitars sitting above or below the vocal. Does the bass need to stick out at 80Hz or is it more kind of filling out and blending in with the bottom end of the guitars (this might help with setting the high pass on the guitar, etc). Do you need to push a little of the 4k of the vocal a bit to get it to cut through, etc....
I find whilst doing the mix balance you can sometimes get a pretty good idea of which frequencies are clashing and need to be sorted out.
Automation wise I tend to think section by section. Do the guitars need to be more in the background compared to the vocal during the verses, for example. Are there some fills, or little parts that I can bring out at various points to add more interest. Do I need to adjust the balance a bit when more parts come in to keep certain things up front?
A useful tip I think is to also think about building transitions between sections, like automating the snare to hit a bit louder going from verse to chorus, or a cymbal crash or highlighting a bass riff or whatever. As Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes things like making the verses a 1/2 db quieter than the chorus, and thinking of ways to make the chorus a bit wider than the verses, etc is they way to go. It's really is worth putting in that kind effort.
I posted a few thoughts the other day with regard to getting loud mixes that might be of some use too: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...#pid121708
My last tip for now is to perhaps go and check out some Killswitch Engage tracks too.
Anyway, well done if you've bothered to read this far. As I said at the start I as you know am far from an expert. These are just a few things that I found helpful along the way, and maybe there might be one or two things there that you might find of some use too.
Good luck!
Cheers!
As you know I am far from a mixing expert so I'm not going to offer up any criticism as such. Listening through your mixes so far, I do have some thoughts based on my own struggles with mixing that I thought might be worth passing on, in case they are of any use to you.
Not sure I can put things in a useful order and this post might turn out to be quite long and rambling, but I'll try to give it a shot. I hope some of my thoughts might have some merit, but your mileage may vary, as they say.
I hope you don't mind the long post, but I feel it might be a bit more use here than posting the usual 'nice mix / too much bass' kind of a thing
.First off, I think it is well worth checking out one of the mixes Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes. It's a good mix and I think it really does cover off everything quite well and is a good benchmark to aim for: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...?tid=18589. (I think mix 3 mastered is the one).
Quick aside - I know some people want to put their own creative spin on mixes so to speak - and I do get that. Personally if I like the library mix, I figure I might as well try for that for a start (learning), as I figure I likely won't be able to come close to matching it, let alone beat it (which is the ultimate goal of course). Over time you might reference the library mix or other commercial mixes and with a bit of luck you might find on the odd occasion you might find that maybe are not so far off as you think. I also think you'll kind of add your own taste to things anyway.
I find mix referencing is really quite brutal to the old ego, but I feel that's the real competition. I know I go on about mix referencing, but for me how else do you know if you are in the ball park, or if you've even got to the car park?
Before I forget, I think you made a few comments regarding compression earlier. I recall this video from Gregory Scott is pretty good and perhaps might be of some help? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XGXz6SHco. (Yeah I know everyone is selling something on Youtube, all the same there's some really good info there I think, compared to a lot of videos out there).
Another video I thought quite good is the Dave Pensado interview with Chris Lord Alge. I recall there's some good compression tips at the end. There's also lots of seemingly small things that Chris mentions in passing during the course of the interview that I found really helpful too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqZHOrj1VjQ
My go to channel compressor is an 1176 style, and I found it useful to set up a few of my own presets as starting points, like slow attack/fast release for drums, fast attack/fast release or whatever for vocals etc. Setting up a few starting presets like this might help with whatever your favorite compressors are.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel I'm hearing that you've got a definite end goal in mind, but maybe are not quite managing to hit the mark as you want as yet. I'm also contractually obliged at this point to mention here that it's well worth picking up Mike Senior's book if you haven't got a copy already.
Ok, I think the main thing I am hearing in your mixes is that you are moving in the right direction, but I feel you might be kind of over processing and pushing everything a bit too much from the start, so my suggestion would be to try not to force the end result too early, and to slowly work towards it, step by step.
It might help to start by giving yourself plenty of mix headroom. Turn up the volume on your audio interface, and trim the channels down a bit. You can always gain up and limit the master bus at the end, no problem.
Start with getting a basic volume balance and sorting out the panning. I find I tend to start with the drums and vocals, then I bring up the guitars, etc around them. Panning can help a lot with freq separation too - panning the guitars wide also leaves space for the vocals up the middle for example. Next move on to eq and compression as needed, and then on to mix bus compression and automation. Maybe go for the final limiting and loudness at the end as a separate finalizing stage.
As part of my template I've set up a vca fader for all drums, all lead vocals, all backing vocals, all guitars, etc so I can easily change the relative volume of each group at any time and see what seems to work best. I usually find I have the drums too quiet by the time I get to the end of processing a mix, so with the vca faders I can easily grab everything but the drums and bring everything else down a few db... as opposed to finding I've run out of headroom to push the drums up. You could just use the bus faders, but I find it handy to set up a row of vca's, kind of like I imagine the group faders are on an SSL. Also if you find you need a bit more headroom at any time, you can just bring down all the vca faders a touch.
I think it's worth saying now that it's no bad thing to be experimenting and trying different things as you are. Even if you are not quite get the results you want right now, I found the things you find out by experimenting do actually turn out to be quite useful for those times when you do need to pull something out the bag to give something a bit of an extra push to cut through.
(Might not be a need to gate all the things though!),
Learning what not do to is equally as important as learning what works, although not as immediately rewarding of course. I know I spend far too much time making notes on what not to do to a mix ever again....
If you listen to the mix I pointed out at the start - for me I feel a lot of the power of the mix is created by the relative balance of the instruments (hence my vca fader set up), as opposed to heavily limiting and eq'ing each part right off the bat. There's a lot of automation going on in that mix too, which gives contrast and focus to different elements in each section at different times as the mix progresses.
If you do things in stages, you might find you'll kind of figure out where you need to add limiting here and there to get the odd thing to sit where you want in the mix.
Balance wise, I find it helps to plan out which parts you want to be at the front of the mix and be highlighted and which parts can sit more in the background. Maybe try starting out with the key elements for each section up front, and fitting everything else around them.
Same as volume balance, frequency balance is kind of a similar sort of thing. Check out the library mix, etc and figure out which are the important frequencies of each part that need to cut though, and what is less important, and kind of plan out where you feel things should sit.
Is it important that the low end of the kick cuts through the mix, or is it more like 3k that is actually cutting through? Is the body of the guitars sitting above or below the vocal. Does the bass need to stick out at 80Hz or is it more kind of filling out and blending in with the bottom end of the guitars (this might help with setting the high pass on the guitar, etc). Do you need to push a little of the 4k of the vocal a bit to get it to cut through, etc....
I find whilst doing the mix balance you can sometimes get a pretty good idea of which frequencies are clashing and need to be sorted out.
Automation wise I tend to think section by section. Do the guitars need to be more in the background compared to the vocal during the verses, for example. Are there some fills, or little parts that I can bring out at various points to add more interest. Do I need to adjust the balance a bit when more parts come in to keep certain things up front?
A useful tip I think is to also think about building transitions between sections, like automating the snare to hit a bit louder going from verse to chorus, or a cymbal crash or highlighting a bass riff or whatever. As Blitzzz mentions in his mix notes things like making the verses a 1/2 db quieter than the chorus, and thinking of ways to make the chorus a bit wider than the verses, etc is they way to go. It's really is worth putting in that kind effort.
I posted a few thoughts the other day with regard to getting loud mixes that might be of some use too: https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/show...#pid121708
My last tip for now is to perhaps go and check out some Killswitch Engage tracks too.
Anyway, well done if you've bothered to read this far. As I said at the start I as you know am far from an expert. These are just a few things that I found helpful along the way, and maybe there might be one or two things there that you might find of some use too.
Good luck!
Cheers!
Just uploaded a mix/master? Waiting for comments? Why not give back and critique a mix/master, or two!