''Fade'' by Franz

[Franz]

Hey Rustyruss, thank you for this very interesting feedback.

There, I better understand your position regarding mixing. Your approach seems clear and honest to me, important to satisfy a potential customer.

However, you raised a very very delicate subject for me when talking about reference mixes. There, I would rather tend to brush everything aside. Why? Because this is a concept that has only existed for two decades and has become established. If we go back to the 70s, what do you think the producers of the Beatles or the Rolling Stones listened to as a reference mix?? I can assure you that groups from different musical backgrounds (rock, jazz, folk, etc...) at that time only aspired to one thing which I summarize: to have the "sound" that the others they don't have it and they are the only ones who have it. No more complicated than that. I'm taking a shortcut: today many groups and singing artists are visibly lacking in inspiration and so we look and listen around us and therefore take references. The action in itself cannot be criticized but it leads to a fairly terrifying standardization of the music. Among the most uncompromising: metal groups. All have the same sound, all the titles are no longer even distinguishable from each other, a total standardization thanks to something brilliant: the reference mixes... These are clones of clones, no hope of any change under penalty of exclusion . Evolution dead in its egg.

In conclusion, I would like to admit that there is a reference mix for a certain type of music. Ok, we can listen to it to immerse ourselves in the atmosphere. One time. Afterwards we attack the multitrack to hear what exists there and design the mix on this existing basis. And “Fade” is a great example to illustrate this. My mix has simply evolved with existing tracks, some that we modify, some that we delete, etc...all this with maximum coherence. My mix of "Fade" is certainly far from the original which should serve as a reference mix? If this were to be the case, would my mix be a simple imitation?? So. Sorry for the harshness of my words. But that's how it is..

Cheers

Francis

[Rustyruss]

Hi Franz thank you for your thoughts.
Just to expand on the reference tracks and choice of genre thing; My use of the reference track is all about sonics;
choosing a genre; firstly will give me mostly the same elements as the tracks I am mixing. this will then allow me not to copy but give me a sonic oversite. When different instruments are group together we have a sonic palate eg FQ we have to piece together. this is different for all genres as we have different tonal elements.
Physics tells us and our ears when one of those FQ are missing some sound strange; thin, dull, when we have to many we have the ying yang effect to fat ,to cloudy, muddy.
The pros have spent many years perfecting the sonic palate of many different genres which is great for us; we have no need to spent time working out the best sonic palate for a 100 piece brass band.
there is another problem here in that if that song has a bad musical arrangement then it can create sonic problems, so some times we mostly remove those clashing instruments that are playing over other instruments. The easiest songs to mix are the best arranged.

Secondly the reference track is used to give us an idea of what the artist intentions are.
We shall never be able to copy any mix ,so I guess we all have new references; but the sonic palate still has to be there
. we can add effects ear candy , throws, be as creative as you like to make things interesting, but we can not escape to FQ rang 20hz-2000hz ; the sonic palate is physics and those pieces still have to fit and reference tracks will give you that sonic palate.

[Rustyruss]

Just a thought is not what makes groups sound the same there use of the same instruments, then having to make those same instruments work as a sonic palate?

[Franz]

Yes, that's quite an interesting development that you provided there, Rustyruss.

But this leaves me quite doubtful. I do not dispute the usefulness of the references but it is their systematic use which would be criticizable from certain points of view. But you are certainly right: I am French and I have to mix an American country music track, a type of music that I cannot appreciate, probably for reasons of my musical culture. So I listen to a reference mix and I still don't like it. I make my own mix in my own way. In return this does not please the client. So logically I will redo my mix by copying it as closely as possible to the reference mix. And now the client likes it. So here I didn't do any creative work but, exaggerating, a simple copy/paste.
This is where the situation creates a problem. My work pleases the client, I was a decent sound engineer but ultimately there is no personal satisfaction. You're going to tell me that you simply shouldn't accept this job. And that's where you would be right.

Yes, overall it's good that there are foundations laid for the sound engineer to "guide" them in case... Difficult to apply your general theory of references: I recorded some time ago ( with my mobile studio 24 digital tracks) the largest French military orchestra (based on brass bands + a bunch of other atypical instruments) which was made up of 120 musicians. It went very well. But at no time was there any question of a reference mix between the conductor and me during the mixing; Besides, where would I have found one (reference) since the orchestra has no equivalent to its structure ? I'm not even talking to you about certain so-called "comtemporary" music orchestras. There, everything has to be cleared and to create. So "reference"....What are you talking about??

But I am convinced by your vision - I should write audition - music nevertheless restricted to certain genres, the most listened to, rock, folk, pop metal, country, and others. Yes, a title has to “sound” good. If this is not the case, we must seek the solution to the problems and it is there, only there, that I concede that a reference mix could help. But if the arrangements are poorly done, the instruments poorly recorded, voices (male/female) without personalities and other mistakes, then there is almost no hope. Or maybe you have the magic solution? I'll take it....

Francis

I have another doubt: have you or will you post a mix of "Fade"?

[Rustyruss]

Hi Franz ,yes, we as mix engineers do have things arrive on the desk that are poorly recorded etc ,and for me those tracks don`t get pass the first step. my sad mix attempt of a badly recorded band will reflect on me so I will not except the client.
For me ,working with the client and meeting his/her/ their needs is the most important thing for me.

sadly to say most musicians have a idea who they want to sound like, and now we do struggle to produce new artist that don`t sound like the person in flavour. when Auto tune was first introduced everybody want to sound like a robot.
Everybody on the voice wanted to sound like Adel, so on and so forth.
The whole copy and paste thing, I get your frustrations.
Now at this time the whole vocal saturation thing when the chorus comes in makes my ears bleed, but what has driven that is so the song is heard above the noise of the factory, shop etc. and this is how the client want there vocal to sound; I hate it but I have to reference this to get it close to the request.

Mostly we can be creative and add our own ear candy, or make the vocal shine in a different way. But as a rule we are at the mercy of the client which is always a hard.

And with no doubt my mix of fade is on its way. I am mixing the winds of gypsy moor at the same time, so it gives me a different perspective on where I need to go with fade, strange way to work I know.

ps some times we have to have some form of peaceful resignation about how things are ;it is what it is.