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Joe's Bar - SonicTramp - 07-05-2023

Finally sorted the track count and got the same as everyone. 2 shots in, it's Joe's bar, started from scratch and worked things out. Sure, I'll be happy to hear about the alcohol content in the mix. Thanks.


RE: Joe's Bar - Roy - 07-05-2023

I'm not really in a place to fully assess a mix on a Sunday morning so I can only give some quick thoughts. I like the kick. It has a thick, swampy vibe that I pictured in my head but couldn't make work.

I don't think the 2nd lead vocal is necessary (I'm assuming it's the untuned alt and not the DT track). I just think it's better simple and the alt is an alt and not meant to be there. Still they provided it so it's fair game. I've learned early on, never give a mix engineer a track that you don't want in the final mix.

My biggest issue is the tone of the lead vocal. Personally I find it a bit harsh in the 2k range and I'm not sure if it's the vocal or just me. When mixing it I found that area to be a bit painful and maybe I'm just overly sensitive to it for whatever reason or it's a real problem. I can't say but that jumped out at me. I'm struggling a bit because , besides the vocals, the mix feels a bit dark to me and people have been saying my mixes have been dark so I'm unsure of my perspective. I'm not sure if a 'dark' mix is a bad quality for this tune either. I think I may just need to recalibrate my ears.

It feels a little dry to me and I think this song is ok with being dry but some elements need some extra..something to give some depth and humanity. It feels a bit flat and upfront. If that makes sense.


RE: Joe's Bar - SonicTramp - 07-05-2023

Thanks for the comment, man. Yeah, I'll mix whatever is in front of me, a thousand guitars? sure, pull them all up and cry. Ok, i'll try it w/o the alt vox.

"dark" doesn't mean bad to me. When I listened to your mix I was impressed with the drums/bass but I heard them more than, say, vocal or guitar and thought they could used a bit more hi.

Me? in my room I always hear more of 60Hz and 137Hz and I always worry that my mix is bright bc of overcompensating.

Our rooms are always diff and so we tell you what we hear. That doesn't necessarily mean we're right.

I'll take a look at my vocal and see. But I noticed my mix was a bit brighter than the last, mostly coming from the guitars.

Alright, I'll try to improve it. It is only my first mix, still much room to improve. I wanted to try a few different ways to mix, and in the process I forgot the ambience. But that's the mistakes most beginners make. I'll concentrate on it when I got the mix going.

Yeah, 2k range is quite annoying to hear. I am not quite sure whether it's my mix or your room. maybe someone will come and say something about it. If they all agree at the certain things then maybe it's a good idea to adjust.

And yes, working on Sunday used to be a sin and one could be stoned to death. But luckily we're in 2023, not 23, so we're safe.

Thanks for the time. I appreciate your comment. I have always respect your and mikej's mixes and wanted to learn more from you guys. Really most of the time I fly blind or with just one eye opens. There are still many mysteries in mixing I need to learn.


RE: Joe's Bar - SonicTramp - 10-05-2023

Second attempt. Not sure how it hits the ears over there but will be happy to hear about it. Thanks.


RE: Joe's Bar - mikej - 11-05-2023

Hi!

I checked out the latest Joesbar_1 mix. Overall it's not too bad and is heading in the right direction. Noted a couple of things - I think the low end could do with tightening up a bit. For me the kick, bass, and snare are taking up too much room in the mix. There seems to be quite a build up of resonances from the kick, bass and snare at around 168Hz that could be doing it. Regarding the mix sounding dark as Roy mentioned I think sorting out the low end and also adding just a touch of 3-4k to bring out the vocal a bit and balance with the low end would do it. Perhaps 1/2 db of air at the top end of the mix too?

Cheers!


RE: Joe's Bar - SonicTramp - 13-05-2023

Thanks for the comment, man. I have been trying, as you know. I am sure you know this already but the learning process doesn't allow us, or at least me, to move forward w/o some looking backward. I have been going back to the editing stage, trying to line things up the way they should be as far as timing and phasing are concerned. I learned a couple things I did wrong, so I post it here just in case someone find it useful. Nobody warned me about it so I wasted a lot of time finding it out on my own. No need for anyone else to go thru that.

I found this out working on another song, not on this song but it's next.

I used to line up the top snare and bottom snare and flipped the polarity if they looked like they needed it, and when I did it didn't matter which one I flipped. Big mistake. I didn't follow the phase of the OH. I found out that was the reason why it was so hard for me to work on the drums/bass. Today I tried to line them up again and investigate. I found that if I lined the snares (top/bottom) up and then flipped only the one that went out of phase with the OH to make it in phase, the whole drum kit sounded thicker, beefier, and more defined. It makes perfect sense to me and I understand the reason, but I'll be happy to hear if you or someone thinks otherwise. That also saves me some time. Thanks.


RE: Joe's Bar - mikej - 14-05-2023

Yeah. Basically that.

I check the polarity of all mics (and any samples) is the same, as best I can by zooming in on the waveforms. If there's two OH mics I check they are the same polarity too. I line up the snare top/bottom to taste. I move the bottom snare (and also any samples) to line up with the top, as I figure the top of the snare is what was hit first. Same with Kick in/out, etc. I make sure the initial transient is positive.

I don't usually tend to align the transients of the OHs with the direct mics, unless it sounds a bit off for some reason. The snare for example will reach the snare direct mics before the OH mics as they are further away. Usually I feel this helps creates a sense of space. If they are too far away and there is a obvious flamming, or the phase is causing issues then I might move them too.

Well. that's how I think about it at least. Hope that makes sense and I have the terminology correct this time Smile.


RE: Joe's Bar - Roy - 14-05-2023

Just to throw in my 2 cents (pence) too early on a Sunday some out of phase-ness is ok. Sometimes good. I personally don't move drum tracks around because of leakage and what's in phase here innt there and all that. I'll flip some polarity and see what works best. I have absolutely chosen and out of phase (less than in perfect phase) under snare mic because it just worked better. It wasn't a mistake even though I'm a terrible mixer. I do sometime align bass di and bass amp signals. Because leakage isn't that big of a deal (usually) and the larger fundamental waveforms of a bass could benefit more from being in phase. But maybe not.

Just keep in mind if you're moving x here you're moving it there.

Also, engineers screw up. I know I have recorded a drum track or two with the under snare mic out of phase. I know of at least one instance where I flipped the phase while recording but it was already more in phase to begin with but did it out of rote. There are times when everyone involved from the drummer to the engineer to the producer (if there was one) to the rest of the band heard a track as a whole and thought it sounded good. And you can flip polarities and get thing (a little more) in phase and it might be better but that original sound might have just bee what they were hearing and based things off of. I've mixed things off this site where there were phase issues in the drum mics or guitar mics and had to make an 'artistic' decision about what was 'wrong' as opposed to what they wanted.

I used to be really religious about phase and it is really important. But phase in complex waveforms can be chaos.

When it comes to phase and polarity don't necessarily pick what's most in phase. That's usually the best, sure, but you're giving up the decision. Pick what sounds best. That's your choice. Sometimes flipping the outside kick mic eqs the overall kick and gets rid of some mud or whatever.

The caveat is that you do really need to be aware of phase in terms of stereo and how a mix sounds in mono. That's still a thing. I didn't think it was a thing back in 93 in audio school and then I had a job built around mono 1/4" tape machines. It's still kicking around because manufacturers are cheap. My old iPad is mono. A mix that collapses too much in mono might not be a good mix. All my mixes sound horrible in mono because I'm lazy and Chris Lord Alge said it was ok once but it really isn't.

Also, Mike mentioned this but it gets forgotten check the phase of samples you add to the rest of the mix. We sometimes assume that they're (in the best) phase but sometimes they're not.

I'm probably not making sense and need coffee.

In summary, phase is a land of contrast.


RE: Joe's Bar - SonicTramp - 14-05-2023

(14-05-2023, 01:46 PM)mikej Wrote: Yeah.  Basically that. 

"I make sure the initial transient is positive."

* I kinda vaguely understand and would appreciate if you explain more. 

"I don't usually tend to align the transients of the OHs with the direct mics, unless it sounds a bit off for...OH mics as they are further away..."

*Good point. Is it bc if the transients are lined up, the OH wouldn't be an OH anymore?



RE: Joe's Bar - mikej - 15-05-2023

(14-05-2023, 10:49 PM)SonicTramp Wrote: Yeah.  Basically that. 

"I make sure the initial transient is positive."

* I kinda vaguely understand and would appreciate if you explain more. 

In simple terms - when you zoom in on the waveform in the DAW - the start of the waveform is moving upwards.

Quote:"I don't usually tend to align the transients of the OHs with the direct mics, unless it sounds a bit off for...OH mics as they are further away..."

*Good point. Is it bc if the transients are lined up, the OH wouldn't be an OH anymore?

This is actually quite a deep technical and philosophical question.  This might confuse things further, but...

Yes - sort of.  For me it's more down to thinking about how all the waves from all the different mics combine to give the illusion of instruments in a space.

I tend to think of it like this: 

We could record a live performance of musicians in room with just a stereo pair of mics.  Do no further processing and release the recording as is.  You can find recordings made exactly like this.  The recordings really do recreate a sense of depth and space, which is down to how the waveforms of all the musicians are combined and captured by the two microphones when played back on our speakers. 

We might think about the final result in terms of how the musicians are arranged in the room, and where the microphone pair is  placed.

In effect, what we are doing with mixing our multi-mic'd studio sessions is recreating the illusion of a session recorded with just a stereo pair of mics. The multi-mic'd session gives us the ability to manipulate and fine tune more aspects of the recording and gives us greater control over how all the individual sounds are combined.

I tend to think in terms of how the sound waves are hitting the microphones, how we are combining all of them and how this translates to a sense of space and depth.       

Cheers!