Discussion Zone
James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Printable Version

+- Discussion Zone (http://discussion.cambridge-mt.com)
+-- Forum: 'Mixing Secrets' Free Multitrack Download Library: mixing forum (http://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=184)
+--- Forum: Acoustic, Jazz, Country, Orchestral (http://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+---- Forum: James May: 'Don't Let Go' (http://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=241)
+---- Thread: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H (/showthread.php?tid=4622)

Pages: 1 2 3 4

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Pedaling Prince - 10-05-2014

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: I don't think this is either the time nor the place to launch into a personal attack, and indeed, I think it's especially discourteous towards Olli and other forum participants.


Metallurgist, my problem with you is the fact that you make personal attacks. Where in the hell do you, who calls people "clowns," calls their work "turds," mocks artists and who continually makes sarcastic comments about others' knowledge of mixing, get off complaining about personal attacks?!

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Let this be clear to you, and I will say it again: I have offered you before an opportunity to contact me directly via PM if you wish to engage in personal matters.

I do not recall you making such an offer. But even if I am mistaken it makes no difference insofar as I will respond to your comments where they are made. If they're made publicly, I'll reply publicly; if they're made privately, I'll reply privately.

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: I only talk facts involving mixing, and I don't engage in personal character assassinations.

Terms like "turd," "clown," "cloud cuckoo land" are most definitely not "facts involving mixing;" those are "personal character attacks." The last of those three terms, to prove my point, was copied and pasted directly from your own posting. So you do engage in "personal character attacks;" the proof is there for all to see in your postings throughout this forum.

And that is my problem with you. As I said, I will not stand by and let bullying go unchallenged, and "personal character attacks" are bullying. A relatively mild, passive aggressive form of bullying albeit, but bullying nevertheless.

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: Nobody has contacted me directly which suggests they obviously aren't bothered....

No, all that proves is that they don't want to draw your wrath; one of the three people who PMed me said as much.

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: I have no identity....i have no ego. My only concern is getting people's mixes rocking and anything I can do to help them, I will.

All right. If you really mean that, please listen to what I have to say:

First, you need to be aware that mixing, regardless of what one may know technically, will always be affected by the taste of the engineer doing the mixing. Based on the radical departure from the norm represented by your mix of Sambasevam Shanmugam's "Kaathaadi," your taste is radically different from most people's. Now, to be clear, I'm not saying your taste is wrong; there's no such thing as taste being "wrong" since taste is, by its very definition, specific to each individual. I say only that you need to be aware of how much your taste differs from others. Instead of blaming other people's knowledge, or their equipment setups, just bear in mind that it may simply be their taste that's the point of contention, not their setup or technical knowledge.

That leads me to my next point. Most of us probably don't have ideal listening environments, but you must remember, unless a person's listening environment is a brand new setup, anyone who's listening to your work on their own equipment is perfectly well suited to judge it because the person in that room, with that setup, is intimately familiar with the characteristics of that setup and, therefore, knows what music in general should sound like on it. In short, blaming the setups of others for the fact that they don't like your work only makes you look foolish. Don't forget, one of your own points when you discuss mixing technique has been about compatibility with other setups. You can't go around saying you're trying to set up your mixes for compatibility with different listening environments then turn around and claim your mix isn't being heard properly because of the setup at their end; if your mix truly is "compatible" it should compensate for that, right?

Finally, calling people names, even mild ones like "clowns," is totally counterproductive. No one is going to consider that helpful, neither the "clown" you're referring to nor the people observing the conversation.

If you truly want to help people, fine. Do as you claim to: stick to the facts. No more name calling or snide, sarcastic remarks; stick to how you feel about the mix itself, not the person who made it and not what setup they made it with. Also, if you know you're dealing with a musician, try describing the problems in less technical terms; most artists, and musicians are artists, have trouble with technical terms. I myself somewhere in between the two extremes; I understand technical terms but prefer to speak more artistically. In short, always consider your audience when you're writing.

Follow those guidelines and I suspect you'll be a lot more helpful to everyone.

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: When I give feedback, I generally put in a lot of effort if time permits, when I could instead be doing my own thing.

That, I'm happy to say, is actually one thing we have in common. Smile

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: I have another concern....and that is the false and misleading information that some members broadcast unwittingly. Novices can't make judgements on what is right and what is wrong and those who understand the technical aspects have a responsibility to ensure they get the right information....as well as try and correct those who distribute myths, for example. Everyone is here to learn, even the person who said I was “fixated” about mono mixing. If i'm fixated, then I must have good reason to be.

But we don't know that; for all we know you could be the one who's spreading the myths, posing as a professional when you're really just an enthusiastic novice.

Now please understand: I am not saying that is the case; I am only making a point about the nature of online life. Myself, when I'm online I always take people at face value and assume that they're telling the truth unless I have reason to suspect otherwise; you have given me no such reason. Yes, you come off as an arrogant know-it-all, but that doesn't say anything about your technical skills, and I'm running on the assumption that your skills are what you say they are.

That being said, the problem most people seem to have with you, based on comments I've seen publicly and privately, is that you state things as if they were gospel to be stamped into the Bible of Mixing. Intentionally or not, you come off as someone who believes they could not possibly be wrong. People don't like what they hear in your mixes; instead of thinking you might've made a mistake you blame their listening setups. Somebody's mixes have "low-midrange congestion;" you assume they made a mistake, never considering that they might actually like the sound that way. Somebody's work has a few technical improprieties; you call it a "turd." Somebody calls their work "Drum & Bass;" you come in and p*ss all over them for that, essentially implying they're an idiot for thinking their work is "real" Drum & Bass (music evolves through people who do radical things, you know Tongue).

BTW, regarding that last point: Chris de Burgh of "Lady in Red" fame prefers his work to be thought of as "rock;" I found this out while on the Chris de Burgh discussion group many years ago. Most people, however, think of his work more as "adult contemporary." Chris de Burgh has been successful worldwide for almost 40 years; would you criticize him for wanting to call his work "rock?" Angel

Once again, you might get further talking about these things to people if you at least acknowledge that maybe the sound you're hearing is the way the mixer intended it. That's not to say you shouldn't say anything about it, only that you should just point out what you don't like about it without making any assumptions about their sound setup, skills etc. Remember, as the old expression goes, to "assume" makes an ASS out of U and ME. Wink Only if you are asked about advice on setup should you offer your opinion.

Actually, if you really feel obligated to comment on setup, there is a way you might be able to do it without ruffling feathers:

Let's suppose, hypothetically, you're listening to a mix that is congested in the low-mids, as you say mine are, and you suspect it might be a listening environment problem. Given the way you've commented in the past, you probably would say something like, "Sounds like you might be in too bright a room, or maybe you're using consumer speakers that emphasize the highs" etc. Even if you're right in your assumptions anyone reading that is going to be like, "He doesn't know anything about my setup! Who in the hell does this guy think he is?!"

Now consider the same exact situation, except you simply say, "Sounds a little congested in the low-mids; might try rolling off the low frequencies to get rid of unwanted lows in vocals, guitars etc." or whatever advice you'd give. Then, ask: "Out of curiosity, what kind of speakers or headphones are you using?" Just casual like that. Then, let's say they tell you they're using a set of Bose home theatre speakers (that's not my setup BTW; just an example Tongue). Then you might say something like, "Well, it may be that your highs are a little overemphasized by those since consumer speakers sometimes have a boost in the highs..." etc. Now you've got the other person's attention because you've been polite, didn't make any assumptions, and might in fact be onto something about the person's setup.

Now in my case, if you'd taken that approach, you probably would know what my setup is by now. Tongue It's no big secret; I've even mentioned it elsewhere in this forum. I just don't want to tell you because your previous attitude regarding me and my work has given me the impression that you would simply use any perceived deficiencies in my system as a way to bash me even further. Your continual refusal to acknowledge the possibility that I might be better able to judge mix and balance than you think, even on my admittedly unusual setup, simply because I've been listening to music on it for over a decade, further discourages me from telling you about it.

That is actually the crux of the issue. No matter how much you know, no one is going to want to listen to you if you can't deal with people's feelings. You once stated straight out that you won't serve musicians' egos. Well, if that's the case, you won't get far in this industry. I may not have worked in professional audio (yet) but I have worked for many years in customer service so I know how to handle people; it's obvious that one must be able to handle people as much as technical points in order to be a sound engineer. You must acknowledge all egos of people you deal with, musicians included; if you need to make a point, it's vital that you find a way to make it without bruising egos because once you've done so that person is not going to listen to you anymore, and then the point you're trying to make is ultimately lost.

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: If specific forum participants don't get value from my feedback they are welcome to ask me not to contribute to their threads in future and I will respect their wishes accordingly.

That would be unfortunate if it ever happened. Based on what the one person who came to your defence said, and on a few things I've observed myself, I still have room in my heart for the notion that you're really a good guy with lots of great ideas to share who simply doesn't realize how he comes off to others.

(09-05-2014, 07:20 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: I formally request that you cease posting on my threads henceforth. Should you continue do so, I will consider it a form of “mobbing” and will feel obliged to take formal steps. Now, please leave me alone.

And I would like to formally ask you to reconsider that position; feel free to contact me privately if you wish to discuss that possibility. However, until and if you do, I will respect your wishes as to your threads, defined as threads that you start about mixes you have attempted. If, however, I see a comment from you in a thread by another that I wish to comment on, like this one started by Olli, I reserve the right to make comments if I feel it is appropriate to do so.

Oh, and to clarify I don't mean I'm going to be looking for your comments on threads, just if you happen to be one of the people participating in a thread that interests me.

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Pedaling Prince - 10-05-2014

(09-05-2014, 09:21 PM)Olli H Wrote: As we won't be able to get comments from reals pensados nor maseratis, the only choice is that we try to comment each other's mixes as honestly as possible. And those who are able to give better comments are gems of this forum.

I think you both belong to these gems.

@Metallurgist: Interesting. Olli's not the first person to say that about us.

Personally, I think that's good incentive for us to come to some kind of mutual understanding.

I'm willing if you are.

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Olli H - 10-05-2014

Bertrand Russell is one of the greatest philosophers of 20th century. One of his exceptional skills was that he was able to change his mind. He was able to disagree with his own previous writings.

When it comes to art, I always try to implement that attitude. For example when I'm practicing mixing I love to do it like a role-playing. With some multitrack I may try to act as if compressor is a source of evil. Next week I may be using compressors and limiters as a coolest sound shaping tools and then I slam them on each and every track.

Sometimes I try to do very bass heavy mixes, sometimes I go towards more midrangy etc. Sometimes I use reference CDs that have so much high-frequency content that it gives me instantly headache. (But hey, that mixer is million selling grammy winning pro, he must know something that I have no idea of. I'm just a local hobbyist from a small town, and I have no plan to be pro in music business)

Still, I always try to do the very best I can with the chosen attitude. Just to learn something new. Sometimes I fail miserably, sometimes I think I had done quite good job.

And of course, when it comes to commenting other's mixes, I always try to give honest objective feelings of that particular moment, then I'm not playing role-plays. Sometimes I may be quite hard with my comments, sometimes I do not dare to say everything I had in my mind, and then I'm not too proud of myself. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

He that is super pro among us, let him cast the first stone. But I'm afraid that there's none among us, and according to my knowledge no one claims to be a such. But here's still people with great knowledge, great ears and interesting opinions. So commenting must go on, let's share the limited knowledge we have, and each of us must learn to take comments and appreciate them us such. And yes, I don't accept personal attacks at all.

And I don't have more time nor energy to play this stupid Jesus-role. But it still makes me sad to see talented energy to go wasted.

Cheers, Olli

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Voelund - 10-05-2014

If what I wrote anewhere made anybody react like John and some other people, I would take a look at me and my attitude.
They could have a point.

No matter how talented and full of wisdom the way a message is presented has a lot of influence on how its received.

We could all learn from this !

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Pedaling Prince - 11-05-2014

(10-05-2014, 12:15 PM)Voelund Wrote: If what I wrote anewhere made anybody react like John and some other people, I would take a look at me and my attitude.

Absolutely. And you were one of the people who Metallurgist got under the skin of, which is another reason I have a problem with the guy. I think your work here is some of the best I've heard, and just about everyone else I've ever seen post about it agrees with me. And honestly? It's been a while since I did my mix of "Comfort Lives in Belief" but I don't remember there being any unusual problems, just the usual things you see in home studio work that are easy enough to fix and nothing to get so frustrated about... Tongue

Actually, in a couple of postings I've even used a quote from your own posting responding to Metallurgist's complaints about the technical quality of your recordings where you admonished him for complaining about "this opportunity [he's] getting for free." Exactly my point; I couldn't have phrased it better. Big Grin

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Voelund - 12-05-2014

Thank you for the flattering words and support. Just to put it straight - I am in no way whatsoever an oracle, I like sounds and sometimes Im lucky, thats it :-)

And to Olli: apologies for participaing in hijacking your post - I still think this mix is the best Ive heard so far of this song

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Olli H - 12-05-2014

Thanks for all of you who had listened my mix. I'm glad you liked it. I really tried my best to do a mix that was emotionally suitable for this song.

Mikes second commandment says it nicely: Maximise The Signal-To-Noise Ratio. As an obedient member I'm already considering to delete the whole thread.

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - pauli - 12-05-2014

Please repost your mix on a new thread so we can continue the discussion, should you decide to delete this one. Top work, I must say

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - Pedaling Prince - 13-05-2014

(12-05-2014, 12:24 PM)Olli H Wrote: Thanks for all of you who had listened my mix. I'm glad you liked it. I really tried my best to do a mix that was emotionally suitable for this song.

Mikes second commandment says it nicely: Maximise The Signal-To-Noise Ratio. As an obedient member I'm already considering to delete the whole thread.

I wouldn't. Just my opinion. Despite the exchange of fire between Metallurgist and myself I still think the core of the discussion, and the mix, are both well worth preserving as-is. Smile

Besides, an honest difference of opinion is to be expected occasionally in a public forum. I feel it's better to preserve such exchanges for the same reason we record history: so we can look back on the lessons learned and not repeat the same mistakes. Blush

RE: James May: 'Don't Let Go' - Olli H - takka360 - 13-05-2014

If you feel you want to do that,you can make a new thread with the same track.
Nothing will be lost,you have the mix.