Discussion Zone

Well, I managed to get in under the "early bird" submission wire, barely. I wish I'd had more time to work on this mix but between life, my old computer and the overall gargantuan size of this mix it was hard to get it all done in time. But I did it. I wanted to get it in by today so I can hopefully get some feedback from Perpetual Escape with enough time to implement any changes they suggest.

I'm going to defer talking about my technical approach to this mix for now and just let the mix speak for itself. I will say one thing, though: I added a little something extra to the intro... I'm hoping the band likes it...

Update: I've added my final version of this mix, the one I'm officially submitting to the competition, to this post (the file marked 2017-08-06, 12.25 AM). My first version (2017-07-23, 9.22 PM) is, of course, still here for comparison and educational purposes.

First, I made most of the changes Mandubien suggested below. Interestingly, regarding his suggestion that I use more automation in balancing the guitars. I did add more automation to some of the guitar tracks but others I found worked better when I removed automation. I was in a bit of a rush to get some kind of mix up in time for the "early bird" deadline so I think I may have thrown the guitars together a little too quickly on the first go 'round.

Once I did all that, listening to the song as a whole I started to understand the vibe of it much more. This inspired me to make a number of other improvements while I was at it. Those I'm not going to discuss here and ruin the surprises for Mandubien when he hears the final version, but please feel free to listen for yourself.

Until now, I never solicited any comments on this mix from anybody, aside from Mandubien. As this is for a competition I felt compelled to complete the mix on the basis of my own skills and the artist's vision alone; I didn't want to be biased by any suggestions. That's also why I haven't listened to, nor commented on, anyone's mix of this song; I didn't want to be influenced by anyone else's work, either. They only thing I did look at were some of Mandubien's comments on the other mixes but without listening to the mixes themselves; that helped give me a clearer idea of what he's looking for without being biased by the work of the other competitors.

However, the final version attached here is "locked" as far as I'm concerned; this is my contest submission. So now I would like to hear any thoughts you all might have on this mix; anyone who does comment I'll make a point of going over to your mix and giving my feedback.

Hey !

I'm Florian, Perpetual Escape's drummer and original mix engineer. Here's my feedback for your mix of Into My Dreams.


- Drums: this is where you have the most to do. I really like the tone of the drums but they lack punch. I can barely hear the kick and the cymbals. The snare sound very thin and I mainly hear the bottom instead of the impact of the top. Toms have a nice separation and sound pretty decent. The second snare totally disappears in the mix when it comes in.

- Bass: I can feel it's here but I can't hear it. I think you can improve it using a lot of saturation or distortion on the heaviest parts.

- Keys: You have chosen to place most the keys in front, which is an option for this song. You did well here since they are not distractive from the rest of the instruments. Careful however during the first guitar solo (second part), where they should be behind the guitars, and not in front.

- Guitars: definitively the hardest part to manage in this song. I think the biggest problem is the volume balance of the guitars through the song. Sometimes they sound at the right volume, sometimes they are too quite or too loud. Automation is gonna be your best friend to manage such things. Also, you must pay attention to which guitar must be in front of the others. A lot of them are there not to be really heard, but felt. So each guitar cannot be heard as the lead one.

- Vocals: This is the second part which needs a lot of work. I know the tracks are not the best ones since the volumes are very different from part to part. But you really need to make sure each section is carefully compressed and at the right volume. So once again automation will be your best friend.
Globally the vocals lack some punch. They don't really cut through the mix. What I usually do is to mix the vocals after the band to make sure I do the right moves to make them cut through. Don't mix them in solo, but in the context of the song so you will make sure they are always at their right place.

Thank you for mixing this song and I'm looking forward to hearing your revised mix!

Cheers
Florian - Perpetual Escape

Yeah, a lot of the issues you brought up I was already aware of, particularly the vocal balance and issues with the snare balance. Actually, the emphasis on the snare bottom was a deliberate choice on my part as I personally preferred the brighter sound of the bottom. Of course I sought your feedback because my goal here is to come as close to what you want to hear as I can so I'll punch up the top mic a little more on my next pass.

The bass I deliberately kept back in this mix to keep it clear of the toms and kick drum, at least for this pass; I suspected you might want that a little stronger and I've already been thinking about ideas how I might bring that out without stepping on the low frequency content of the drums.

The second snare? Yeah, my fault. By the time I realized my mistake it was too late to go back and fix it and still get this submitted by the "early bird" deadline yesterday. I'll fix that.

I'm glad you like the keys. Based on your feedback I'll keep them where they are for most of the mix but pull them back during that second part solo.

Interesting your notes on the guitars, though. My intent with this mix was to give each guitar its "moment in the sun" so to speak, but if there are particular guitar tracks that are meant to be in the background it would be helpful to know which guitar tracks you mean so I can bear that in mind. As for them being a bit too loud or too quiet at times I tend to agree, but again I didn't have time to polish that part of the mix as much as I would've liked to before I had to submit the mix...

Funny what you say about mixing the vocals after everything else is mixed because this is the way I approach all mixes, including this one. The fact is I'm aware the balance needs work; that's something I was already planning to improve upon in my next pass at this.

There is another reason why this mix has issues (and the reason I didn't want to talk about my technical approach to these tracks until I got your feedback).

I'm mixing on a stock 2009 iMac that's never had a hardware upgrade. Put simply, this machine is way underpowered to do a 113 track mix. The mix you're hearing was done by first premixing tracks into stereo stems then reimporting those stems into a new project and mixing them. That was why I couldn't, for example, fix the snare problem, at least in this first pass. The drums were a pre-mixed stem; I couldn't bring up that snare individually without remixing the stem which, given how long it takes this computer to bounce a mix, wasn't feasible if I was going to make the deadline...

I had the same issue with the vocals. There are only two vocal stems, the lead and the background, and they were thrown together rather hastily to make the deadline. I knew they weren't perfect but I was surprised they fell together as well as they did with the mix, which is why I decided to go ahead and submit my effort since I wanted to get some specific notes from you before I went any further anyway. Since changes are so difficult to make, because I have to mix this in stems, I wanted to get a better idea what you're looking for before I made any adjustments to the stems themselves.

I think what I'm going to do on my next pass is ditch the vocal stems entirely. I'll make the adjustments you've suggested on the band then, once I get the band part sounding as good as I can, I'll bounce the whole thing down to a stem. Then instead of creating a stem of the vocal tracks I'll bring them in as their original separate 17 tracks and mix them against the completed band stem; that way I'll have total control of every element of the vocal mix which will increase my vocal balance options dramatically.

Unfortunately, I don't work in audio professionally; I have a "day job." So it may take me a few days to revise the mix. I will try, however, to get it in at least two or three days before the 30th so you can, if you have time, give me any additional notes you wish.

Regardless how this turns out, however, I just want to say that I appreciate your willingness to share your tracks here. The fact is I'm sick and tired of mixes that have been crushed in "mastering" to be so loud that I can't even listen to an entire CD at a decent volume without temporary hearing loss. I love heavy rock of all kinds but unfortunately that's the kind of music that usually suffers most from the "loudness wars." I mix it myself not only to practice my mixing skills but also so I can have music with natural dynamics that doesn't blow my eardrums out through my eye sockets...

I also must say I love your band's guitar tone; your four microphone approach is unusual and, at times, difficult to work with, but I can't argue with the awesome results. And yes I know I don't have to use all four mics, but I happen to like the sound I get when I do; it's nice and thick and dark with some real body to it. Gotta love it.

Anyway, I'll get that revised mix out ASAP.

Thanks again!

Oh, BTW, you didn't mention the little extra I added to the intro. If you like it I'll keep it in; if not I can easily pull it. Let me know!

OK, just dropping a quick line to let you know I have not forgotten about doing a revised mix, only that life got in the way (as I thought it might) so I wasn't able to finish the revised mix as quickly as I thought.

Actually, I think I'll submit my final mix on August 5 so I can spend as much time as I can refining it before finalizing it. I assure you, however, that I will submit it in time for the contest.

Thanks for your patience.