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Patrick T - Blue (Metallurgist)
#11
(29-02-2016, 08:01 PM)dcp10200 Wrote:
(29-02-2016, 04:17 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: It seems to me the ability to do all kinds of crazy things to someone's raw tracks is an easy thing to do. Making those things work within the context of the song is more of an art form. I would never confuse technical acumen with an art form, or vice-versa. As an art form, I feel this mix fails badly, but shows off the mixers considerable technical skills. Improving on or making a track 'sound' better is truly one of the most subjective things in the human experience. I enjoy the technical aspects of this mix but the song is lost because of it. And to me, it is all about the song.

I haven't really made a mix of this track, so take my words with a metric tonne of salt. I'm agreeing with you, the mix is perfect from a purely technical aspect. It's not too hot and compressed the balance is great, and it has some cool effects.

From a musical perspective however, the delays and other effects don't really add to what's already there and that audio watermark is really annoying, like a pirated copy off Limewire. I've listened to other mixes by Dave and they all seem to be technically good, not exactly song serving.

I'll put it like this, Californication by the Red Hot Chili peppers has a horrible mix and master from a technical standard, however I love the songs on that album because they are well written and the raw and dirty sound of that album suit the music of that album because the music is raw and visceral. This mix is like how Californication would be with overly polished, technically perfect production.

this above post is also relevant to yourself. note well i seek objective discussion, not ones based on subjective, personal preference-type tastes which are unproductive in this forum.

read especially the last paragraph.

thanks for listening....i look forward to your cooperation regarding my request.

http://www.discussion.cambridge-mt.com/s...0#pid44020
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#12
(09-03-2016, 11:34 AM)The_Metallurgist Wrote:
(29-02-2016, 08:01 PM)dcp10200 Wrote:
(29-02-2016, 04:17 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: It seems to me the ability to do all kinds of crazy things to someone's raw tracks is an easy thing to do. Making those things work within the context of the song is more of an art form. I would never confuse technical acumen with an art form, or vice-versa. As an art form, I feel this mix fails badly, but shows off the mixers considerable technical skills. Improving on or making a track 'sound' better is truly one of the most subjective things in the human experience. I enjoy the technical aspects of this mix but the song is lost because of it. And to me, it is all about the song.

I haven't really made a mix of this track, so take my words with a metric tonne of salt. I'm agreeing with you, the mix is perfect from a purely technical aspect. It's not too hot and compressed the balance is great, and it has some cool effects.

From a musical perspective however, the delays and other effects don't really add to what's already there and that audio watermark is really annoying, like a pirated copy off Limewire. I've listened to other mixes by Dave and they all seem to be technically good, not exactly song serving.

I'll put it like this, Californication by the Red Hot Chili peppers has a horrible mix and master from a technical standard, however I love the songs on that album because they are well written and the raw and dirty sound of that album suit the music of that album because the music is raw and visceral. This mix is like how Californication would be with overly polished, technically perfect production.

this above post is also relevant to yourself. note well i seek objective discussion, not ones based on subjective, personal preference-type tastes which are unproductive in this forum.

read especially the last paragraph.

thanks for listening....i look forward to your cooperation regarding my request.

http://www.discussion.cambridge-mt.com/s...0#pid44020

Here is my objective opinion: The mix overall is very well balanced, and has a cohesive sound. The delays need work however, they are very present in the mix and are distracting from the actual main vocals and don't really add very much to the mix as a whole. The audio watermark at the very beginning is completely unnecessary, like an MP3 downloaded from limewire of a new hit single, not great for something that will be commercially released (since this was the other point you brought up in your comment). The guitar during the outro gets lost behind the bass and overally the reverb, while a nice touch, can be overbearing. A very short (30 ms) ping pong delay or a stereo reverb with a shorter decay would help out as the mono reverb on the guitar really intrudes on the space that the guitar is taking up. For the vocal delay, try using less feedback and lowering the level of them overall in the mix. Mostly my crtiques are about the effects as you can see, the mix is again quite well balanced and the separation of instruments is decent. The weak point is the use of effects, the "trippy" feeling of the mix comes across as forced and detracts from the other good elements of the mix.

Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer

Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
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#13
"I feel..." is a subjective assessment.....it's a personal opinion. it has nothing to do with this forum's goal

I disagree with your assessment of this forum. I FEEL it is an artistic forum, not the technical forum you FEEL it to be.

i can express my own needs and wishes without subjective opinion being forced upon me.

Why are you being so defensive. No one is forcing anything on you. They are only expressing their SUBJECTIVE opinion of your work. Giving praise where warranted and criticism, accordingly.

i feel that having the technical competence to achieve those things is an essential prerequisite of being a more useful servant to the artist

In my significant time doing both studio and live sound, the best mixers I've experienced didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it came to the technical aspects of their craft. What they possessed were great ears. Having great technical skills makes you a great assistant or technician. I've watch mixers do things that made the technician inside me cringe, but the musical results were right. Were these dolts wrong? Not at all. They were serving the artist perfectly. And speaking of serving the artist, how does chopping out verses and choruses serve the artist from a technical perspective? That sounds very SUBJECTIVE to me. Stating your reasons for doing it does not make it OBJECTIVE.

so what's your point..and importantly, what does it OBJECTIVELY contribute to my thread and my mix?

Obviously, nothing. The subjective nature of music IS the point. I do not expect anything but subjective opinions from posters in this forum. It is up to me to either interpolate their opinions or to ignore them as pretense or as simple trolls. You have schooled me on MP3s which have improved my posts here and I thank you for that. I would not presume to school you on such technical things. You are head and shoulders above me on those. All I can offer is my SUBJECTIVE opinion of your mixes. You can take them or leave them but that is all I have to offer.

ASK: CAPS are for emphasis.
PreSonus Studio One DAW
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#14
(09-03-2016, 02:24 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: All I can offer is my SUBJECTIVE opinion of your mixes. You can take them or leave them but that is all I have to offer.

it's best that you stay out of my threads in that case.
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#15
(09-03-2016, 12:31 PM)dcp10200 Wrote: Here is my objective opinion....

thanks

Quote:The delays need work however, they are very present in the mix and are distracting from the actual main vocals and don't really add very much to the mix as a whole.

they were to me too. at the time i reworked it, i took out a layer of delays and tweaked what was left. the mod' felt much better to me. the up-front nature of the delays was a personal artistic decision. it gets subjective, eh?

Quote:The audio watermark at the very beginning is completely unnecessary

to you, but not to me. but thanks anyway.

i put it on all my forum mixes. if it disturbs you, then don't listen Wink

Quote:not great for something that will be commercially released (since this was the other point you brought up in your comment).

agreed, but in a commercial mix i obviously wouldn't put it in. Big Grin

Quote:The guitar during the outro gets lost behind the bass and overally the reverb, while a nice touch, can be overbearing.

when the bass guitar plays, the lead guitar doesn't....so it might sound like it's masking but it isn't. plays fine over my gear and with my ears. but thanks anyway. the reverb was a creative decision....to suit the mood and ambiance as per my vision of the concept/mix. i can imagine some might find it overbearing....but others not. but it doesn't matter here, i'm not trying to please anyone but myself. Wink

Quote:A very short (30 ms) ping pong delay or a stereo reverb with a shorter decay would help out as the mono reverb on the guitar really intrudes on the space that the guitar is taking up.

that's an idea, but this was my vision.

Quote:For the vocal delay, try using less feedback and lowering the level of them overall in the mix.

there's about a million things one could do...but this was my vision.

your vision will be different, but being different doesn't make it a problem, of course.

Quote:The weak point is the use of effects, the "trippy" feeling of the mix comes across as forced and detracts from the other good elements of the mix.

now you've gone subjective. this was already mentioned by Patrick...but like i said, this was my vision, not his. this was what i wanted, so judging it on your own criteria (or his) is dodgy ground. i'm not working to anyone's brief here, only my own. it's important you understand the freedom of the forum. to mix without constraints.

i wanted to take a fresh approach to mixing this, adding a new vibe and dynamic to the material. mission accomplished.....except for the points which worked better for me in the remix, which i didn't post. perhaps it's just as well.

many people in the forum do what i call vanilla mixes. they simply take all the materials present, and mix. that's not a problem, but personally i want to push my own creative boundaries and explore without being judged. people giving their subjective opinions is a judgement...it's a superior thing. as if their tastes, likes and dislikes are the right ones and they are trying to impose their views upon you/us. i might not like the red bits in tooty-fruity ice cream, but it doesn't mean that what the ice-cream manufacturer is doing is wrong or should be fixed. OK?
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#16
(09-03-2016, 04:39 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote:
(09-03-2016, 12:31 PM)dcp10200 Wrote: Here is my objective opinion....

thanks

Quote:The delays need work however, they are very present in the mix and are distracting from the actual main vocals and don't really add very much to the mix as a whole.

they were to me too. at the time i reworked it, i took out a layer of delays and tweaked what was left. the mod' felt much better to me. the up-front nature of the delays was a personal artistic decision. it gets subjective, eh?

Quote:The audio watermark at the very beginning is completely unnecessary

to you, but not to me. but thanks anyway.

i put it on all my forum mixes. if it disturbs you, then don't listen Wink

Quote:not great for something that will be commercially released (since this was the other point you brought up in your comment).

agreed, but in a commercial mix i obviously wouldn't put it in. Big Grin

Quote:The guitar during the outro gets lost behind the bass and overally the reverb, while a nice touch, can be overbearing.

when the bass guitar plays, the lead guitar doesn't....so it might sound like it's masking but it isn't. plays fine over my gear and with my ears. but thanks anyway. the reverb was a creative decision....to suit the mood and ambiance as per my vision of the concept/mix. i can imagine some might find it overbearing....but others not. but it doesn't matter here, i'm not trying to please anyone but myself. Wink

Quote:A very short (30 ms) ping pong delay or a stereo reverb with a shorter decay would help out as the mono reverb on the guitar really intrudes on the space that the guitar is taking up.

that's an idea, but this was my vision.

Quote:For the vocal delay, try using less feedback and lowering the level of them overall in the mix.

there's about a million things one could do...but this was my vision.

your vision will be different, but being different doesn't make it a problem, of course.

Quote:The weak point is the use of effects, the "trippy" feeling of the mix comes across as forced and detracts from the other good elements of the mix.

now you've gone subjective. this was already mentioned by Patrick...but like i said, this was my vision, not his. this was what i wanted, so judging it on your own criteria (or his) is dodgy ground. i'm not working to anyone's brief here, only my own. it's important you understand the freedom of the forum. to mix without constraints.

i wanted to take a fresh approach to mixing this, adding a new vibe and dynamic to the material. mission accomplished.....except for the points which worked better for me in the remix, which i didn't post. perhaps it's just as well.

many people in the forum do what i call vanilla mixes. they simply take all the materials present, and mix. that's not a problem, but personally i want to push my own creative boundaries and explore without being judged. people giving their subjective opinions is a judgement...it's a superior thing. as if their tastes, likes and dislikes are the right ones and they are trying to impose their views upon you/us. i might not like the red bits in tooty-fruity ice cream, but it doesn't mean that what the ice-cream manufacturer is doing is wrong or should be fixed. OK?

I can respect your vision, however the idea of the forum is that you have been given a multitrack by a band or artist to mix and prepare for commercial release. I'm listening from the point of view of a consumer listening to your mix, not so much the engineer, however I will make technical comments when listening.

Your effects and technical approach to making a non vanilla mix is fine, that's what you're going for, in the end however this doesn't translate to a consumer level and sounds like an attempt to completely revamp a song that doesn't need revamping. At the end of the day the consumer level is real test of a mix, whether or not it holds up on a consumer system, not just your monitors. From your perspective and your own mind this mix sounds good, but from an outsider's perspective it distracts from the intent of the artist, the mix no longer fits the music.

I mean no offence to you in anyway, this is just from my point of view.



Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer

Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
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#17
many people in the forum do what i call vanilla mixes

Sounds like a judgment/SUBJECTIVE call to me. Never have I ever read anyone talk out of both sides of their mouth like you.

it doesn't matter here, i'm not trying to please anyone but myself.

So why do you post here? You don't accept anyone's SUBJECTIVE opinion of your mixes and in almost every case berate the poster for even having an opinion. This forum is not the right place for you, I'm afraid.

i put it on all my forum mixes. if it disturbs you, then don't listen

By putting a watermark on your mixes are you supposing posters would want to steal your mixes and post them as their own?
PreSonus Studio One DAW
[email protected]
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#18
(09-03-2016, 03:48 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote:
(09-03-2016, 02:24 PM)Mixinthecloud Wrote: All I can offer is my SUBJECTIVE opinion of your mixes. You can take them or leave them but that is all I have to offer.

it's best that you stay out of my threads in that case.

You have never given me better advice and none that will be so easy to abide.
PreSonus Studio One DAW
[email protected]
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#19
on another matter, Mike states in the MDL's page introduction, that:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"All these files are presented......without any effects or processing."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that's clearly NOT the case with your multi-track. it's been tampered with subsequent to the recordings...you've EQ'd, compressed and automated. the vocal has also been pitch corrected.

if i'm going to mix something, i want to apply my own parameters without having them, and their artifacts(!) forced upon me, and i'd suggest that people here in the forum, would also benefit from not having to negotiate material that's been tampered with. for example, automation is going to mess up someone's Insert chain, and thereafter through to the stereo buss, pretty substantially. if they don't yet understand what they are being confronted with in the supplied materials, they will never stand a hope in learning anything. they believe they are mixing "The Recordings", without processing - Mike has told them so.

if the kid can't pitch and you don't want the world to know, i could understand processing it before releasing it in the Public Domain (but poor pitching skills will show up at gigs anyway). personally, i think it would provide excellent opportunity in the forum for people to have a go at doing "transparent" pitch correction, for example. and if low cuts and high cuts or shelving filters need to be applied, that they learn by having a go at doing this themselves. the same goes for compression...and automation.

i don't wish to sound confrontational, but i have concerns. your fundamental concern appears to be marketing and promotion for the band (hence the loudness - to impress perhaps)? my concern is for my on-going personal development and helping the development of others as best i can, in a sharing community. i believe that what you are doing is hindering the development process, not only in this mix, but in your multi-track. when i read comments like "nice mix", or "this is a very good, solid, pleasant, and effective mix", then i think my concerns are well founded. noobs are going to read those comments and think that what they are hearing IS good and will no doubt try and replicate it. that's not a healthy learning environment, in any language.

i challenge you to put this song out WITH dynamics intact. aim for -14LUFS, a True Peak of -1 and an approximate +5 LRA (simply turning it down is not enough, though for those who do turn this mix down to loudness match it against =14 LUFS, say, they will immediately discover where my claims of dullness came from). i bet my pension that you can't rise to the challenge. indeed, i challenge EVERYONE to have a go at this. in attempting to, you should soon discover the issues present in the multi which nobody has discussed yet.

anyway, please at least think about the issues i raise, that's all i ask. without thought, there cannot be a potential for progress......

Cheers,,
Dave"

Mixing is way more art and soul than science. We don’t really know what we’re doing. We do it because we love music! It’s the love of music first. Eddie Kramer

Gear list: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Mbox Mini w/Pro Tools Express, Reaper, Various plugins, AKG K240 MKii, Audio Technica ATH M50x, Yorkville YSM 6
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#20
Incredible.. I really enjoyed listening to the 16-bit version.. this is the first mix of this song I listened to as I happen to see it in the "new post" section (I wont be listening to other versions because I don't want to skew my enjoyment of this version) I don't know what this song sounds like unmixed, but ignorance on this one is bliss.. What people can learn from this mix is to have the courage to be dynamic... provide a feel of emotion to match the song.
M1 Pro MBP: is my Hattori Hanzo.
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