excellent recordings, I love working with stuff like this. you guys know I'm not a huge fan of using loads of mics when one or two will do, so there's a lot I didn't use.
i'm not one to compress the living hell out of the master either, but I did attempt to manage the dynamics/rms on the sides channel since I went with a very full, wide stereo image....
anyway, hope you like it... had a blast working on it, but I'm aware there's some automation yet to really polish this up... any criticisms/comments would be greatly appreciated.
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
I had to listen to this mix about 5 times before i got - its almost the antithesis of my mix so took me a while to re-calibrate my ears.
As ever, each instrument has been treated with the respect it deserves in terms of EQ and dynamic control, both individually and where they sit within the overall spectrum - and i can hear myself saying i like how this sounds or that sounds e.g. I love what you've done with horns both tonally and spatially, the acoustic guitar is both percussive and bright (enough) yet not fatiguing. The electric guitar is tasteful and comes forward when required without dominating.
I think the vocals, although pleasant, need (more) automation as they tend to fall away into the mix during pre-chorus, chorus and bridge. They seem fine in verse.
The thing I'm really noticing is that it sounds like you've let Keith Moon sign off your mix (lol). The drums (OH's, toms/snare) seem very dominating at times and a little out of balance with the rest of the mix - at least to my ears, on my monitors - and thus I'm not 100% convinced by the mix as a whole as opposed to it being a collection of nice sounding elements.
I hope that makes sense - see what you think once you've let your ears cool down.
22-10-2014, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2014, 05:35 PM by The_Metallurgist.)
i've just come from Alan's thread of this mix...so my ears are still ringing!
you've hit the sides too hard in the compressor, or you've dropped the side channel down...or you've pushed the mid up? or all 3?
if i home-in on the sides, it sounds like your panning strategy could be revisited with a view to exploiting the frequency spectrum in the stereoness of your mix? unfortunately, i'm not aufait with the material, just other's mixes, so it's a bit difficult for me to make any practical suggestions in the mix itself. have you got a link to this multi because i couldn't find it on their site?
my vision would be to bring the vocal out more, and work the instrumentation in the depth field rather than rely merely on panning for separation. if you did both, this mix would open up. there's some coherence issues between the drum kit's ambiance and the illusion of space regarding the other instruments....the sort that happens if we don't take a break for a day and check the mix with a fresh perspective? maybe take a couple of days so your brain can forget what you did. i can never spot my own typing mistakes in the forum unless i read the material the following day!
i can't help feeling this mix sounds sonically flat (maybe that's Alan's fault - over processing on the master). but it's not the first time i've noticed this. i'm wondering if you've got that LA2A hybrid working a lot or you've been leaning on the Pcomp. it sounds like over-processing to me, and you're losing the transients before they gets to the stereo buzz?
i meant to get back to you on that too! i'm slack.
so, i'll do it now!
{header} WHEN IS AN LA2A CLONE NOT AN LA2A CLONE?
an LA2A clone with attack and release settings, isn't an LA2A clone but an imposter. the comps inherent character is shaped by it's odd behaviour. it is governed by the type of material that's fed into it, so the louder the material becomes, the longer the in-built release becomes. if you have access to a real clone, you will see that if it's fed a burst of high level, it can take several seconds for the needle to return to zero? by having an adjustable attack and release, you're not getting it's character. this is why it's referred to as a Level Controller rather than a Compressor. their definitions are slightly different and to the uninitiated they are equal when they are all but equal. many peeps in audio forums slip up on this subtlety. this is why you shouldn't really employ an LA2A real clone on the master buss, or any buss because it lends itself best to single-source material. if it has to manage multi source material, as would be the case in a stereo buss, it nails it. while opto compressors are good for mastering and occasional buss deployment, the LA2A isn't, for reasons briefly alighted to above and herewith.
I mixed this one at a very low volume (everyone else was sleeping) and all in one go (not a good move for me) and as such, I'm pretty unsatisified. Your mention of the bass is very right... I didn't hear that at all at the volume I was working on, but at listening levels it's pretty bad.
I didn't really do anything to the snare... I was just careful about which mics I chose to work with and chose a pair that had the best phase relationship from the start. Aside from highpassing it, all I did was give it a little boost at 5000 for bite.
(22-10-2014, 11:58 AM)Olli H Wrote: Very good!
Basic balances and overall sound feels good to me.
Snare sound very good. Did you replace it?
If you plan to do a second version, some tweaking points came to my mind while I listend it through
Around 0:33 there’s no lead instrument (piano?)
Bass sound has a weird hollowness. Audible in verses. If I remember correctly that weird sound is was in bass track around 600-1000 Hz
2:38 I can’t hear ”are you hearing me”
At 3:06 drummer falls down upon drums
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
(22-10-2014, 12:31 PM)HbGuitar Wrote: I had to listen to this mix about 5 times before i got - its almost the antithesis of my mix so took me a while to re-calibrate my ears.
My ears were obviously not calibrated properly when I finished it, because it sounds like hell to me today
Quote:As ever, each instrument has been treated with the respect it deserves in terms of EQ and dynamic control, both individually and where they sit within the overall spectrum - and i can hear myself saying i like how this sounds or that sounds e.g. I love what you've done with horns both tonally and spatially, the acoustic guitar is both percussive and bright (enough) yet not fatiguing. The electric guitar is tasteful and comes forward when required without dominating.
Thank you. With most of these tracks I tried to let the high quality of the recordings do most of the work and used very minimal EQ... mostly shelves aside from the usual low end cleanup. Guitars and piano are the exception... for me those instruments always seem to need a lot of midrange control, especially when layered. The acoustic has almost all of its tonal information buried in the mix... I meant for it to mostly be a percussive layer of flavor; glad you picked up on that
Quote:I think the vocals, although pleasant, need (more) automation as they tend to fall away into the mix during pre-chorus, chorus and bridge. They seem fine in verse.
Yes, you're very right. I was also lazy with correcting the timing and tuning... I mixed late at night at a very low level and wasn't hearing a lot of the performance inaccuracies. Those are affecting the lead vocal balance quite a bit, especially with a compressor running on each of the vocal busses.
Quote:The thing I'm really noticing is that it sounds like you've let Keith Moon sign off your mix (lol).
hahahahahahahahahaha. yeah. they're too loud. Especially the OHs and toms.
Quote:I hope that makes sense - see what you think once you've let your ears cool down.
Yeah, you're spot on with your criticisms. There's lazy automation, poor attention to performance accuracy, and a lot of other rookie mistakes at play. The verb situation in particular is really bad. I'm going to redo this one. Thanks again, mate!
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
Hey Dave, thanks for the listen and thoughtful comments. Unfortunately, this is one of those dud mixes I put out occasionally when I get complacent.... I'm going to have to turn off all the inserts, throw down the faders and start over, I think.
(22-10-2014, 05:28 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: you've hit the sides too hard in the compressor, or you've dropped the side channel down...or you've pushed the mid up? or all 3?
The sides came out louder (RMS) than they were prior to compressing them, but the timing settings are sloppy and there's some rhythmic asymmetry that's contributing to the perception that the side channels are weak. In fact, I'm not sure why I chose to compress the sides, because they didn't really need/benefit from it.... sleepy mixing?
Quote:if i home-in on the sides, it sounds like your panning strategy could be revisited with a view to exploiting the frequency spectrum in the stereoness of your mix?
Doesn't help that my reverb choices were really poor. I usually spend a lot of time getting the ambiance right... automating, fine tuning, additional sends for width and depth where necessary, but for some reason... I didn't this time. This is almost a little embarrassing or would be if we didn't all turn out duds from time to time.
Quote:
unfortunately, i'm not aufait with the material, just other's mixes, so it's a bit difficult for me to make any practical suggestions in the mix itself. have you got a link to this multi because i couldn't find it on their site?
But be prepared to wade through lots of folders and keep google translate handy. It's worth it... great recordings on really nice microphones. The piano recordings themselves are worth the price of admission.
Quote:my vision would be to bring the vocal out more, and work the instrumentation in the depth field rather than rely merely on panning for separation. if you did both, this mix would open up. there's some coherence issues between the drum kit's ambiance and the illusion of space regarding the other instruments....the sort that happens if we don't take a break for a day and check the mix with a fresh perspective? maybe take a couple of days so your brain can forget what you did. i can never spot my own typing mistakes in the forum unless i read the material the following day!
You're spot on, there. I also mixed this very quietly, so I wasn't hearing the ambiance properly in the first place. There's some mic blending/double tracking spread across the stereo field that I wouldn't normally mess with in this genre, but I wanted to challenge myself and learn a few things in the process: I did The double tracks are really detracting from the immediacy of the vocal and need tighter timing/tuning, and due care wasn't exercised. Thus, I have wibbly wobbly vocal levels that aren't standing up to the drums.
Quote:i can't help feeling this mix sounds sonically flat (maybe that's Alan's fault - over processing on the master). but it's not the first time i've noticed this. i'm wondering if you've got that LA2A hybrid working a lot or you've been leaning on the Pcomp. it sounds like over-processing to me, and you're losing the transients before they gets to the stereo buzz?
No LA2A here... but there's a similarly simple explanation. I used a tape saturation simulator during mastering and the distortion is smoothing out the transients in the side channel overmuch. I think the compressor channel inserts have too-fast attack times, too. The automation is wanting, too, of course.
Thanks again for checking in (the details on LA2A design were really helpful and information, btw... enjoyed that). I really need to get some supplemental monitoring that doesn't emphasize the 2000 to 5000 range so much, because I always undermix it in rock. I'll make sure you guys see it when I get a revision ready.
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
(22-10-2014, 11:28 PM)takka360 Wrote: Yoad Nevo uses an LA2A in his mastering chain.
He worked on Felt Mountain, right? That's one of the best sounding albums of all time, for me... but I doubt there's any LA2A in the mastering, because it's pretty dynamically loose for an electronic album.
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
23-10-2014, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2014, 10:06 AM by The_Metallurgist.)
(23-10-2014, 01:27 AM)pauli Wrote:
(22-10-2014, 11:28 PM)takka360 Wrote: Yoad Nevo uses an LA2A in his mastering chain.
He worked on Felt Mountain, right? That's one of the best sounding albums of all time, for me... but I doubt there's any LA2A in the mastering, because it's pretty dynamically loose for an electronic album.
ah, another Goldfrap fan
and many thanks for the link and the heads-up!
LA2A on the master buss? there will always be exceptions to the rule. i will add, however, that people are paid to push product. i get a bit sick of it because there's NO TRANSPARENCY, so when "some acclaimed individual" comes along with his pocket lined with a sponsorship deal and makes bold claims and recommendations, you won't have a clue if it's the money talking or the person's UNBIASED opinion, right Alan? there's one bloke on the Tube who really exploits this to the max; i won't mention any names. at the end of the day, NOBODY knows who uses what, and where, and why, and what parameters they used, etc etc etc. so let's be careful about what we believe. personally, if i can't poke it, smell it, see it, i am guarded until the evidence is actually there to support the claim.
so, we check out an interview with a famous producer on the Tube...nice video, studio setting. and there's a brand of monitors on his consul, strategically placed for maximum camera exposure. was he paid for product placement? i could go on......
my personal experience of the LA2A on the mastering buss is that it sucks [most of the time] and importantly, i understand why. but that doesn't mean it's not a valid choice in some situations. i've given the reasons, you chaps decide what works best for you. no rules.
