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The_Metallurgist mixes Enda Reillys Cur An Long Ag Seol
#11
I came to similar conclusions about my ability to correct the tracking difficulties. I don't blame Enda Reilly, though... we do what we can with what we've got and what we can afford... having said this, I think your work here is admirable.

Mostly I came by to offer a few ideas/thought experiments on a challenging situation. Right now I'm considering the idea of intentional comb filtering and tonal reverbs (although that's pretty much intentional comb filtering too, eh?) to see what I can do to keep a little more brilliance in the guitar/mandolins. The acoustic guitar bleed is pretty problematic in this regard...

Violins are a pretty scratchy too, huh? Kinda like there wasn't enough rosen on the bows. Though that suits that style I think. Something about the method of tracking suggests to me that this wasn't intended to be a pristine, polished sounding song, but more of a minstrel-style.
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#12
(30-07-2014, 07:59 PM)pauli Wrote: I came to similar conclusions about my ability to correct the tracking difficulties. I don't blame Enda Reilly, though... we do what we can with what we've got and what we can afford.

naturally concur. i actually enjoyed the technical challenges though, but i must admit to feeling deflated at having to compromise whether for my own shortcomings or the material i'm working with, or both, but i gave it my best shot.

Quote:Mostly I came by to offer a few ideas/thought experiments on a challenging situation. Right now I'm considering the idea of intentional comb filtering and tonal reverbs (although that's pretty much intentional comb filtering too, eh?) to see what I can do to keep a little more brilliance in the guitar/mandolins. The acoustic guitar bleed is pretty problematic in this regard...

yes, there's some traps to help make it that bit more interesting. the problem with reverb is that it hangs around too long and clutters up the sonic field, especially where the terrain in the HF zone is happening with some really fast transients. but full respect for having a bash at it and trying out a few things. even if you don't succeed, you will have picked up some knowledge on the way....and growth is good.

Quote:Violins are a pretty scratchy too, huh? Kinda like there wasn't enough rosen on the bows. Though that suits that style I think.

a fiddle has a different action to a violin, the body is less and the outcome quite tinny in comparison. because there's less resonance and a much shorter decay from the body, the action is presented that much faster and really suits Celtic music and similar genres. my approach was to drop them back in the mix and let the ambiance do it's thing, along with some legitimate EQ'ing to support the depth perspective - less HF's. for good, fast fiddle action, it needs a dynamic mic attached to the body pointing down to the strings. anything else just won't cut it...you get too much room otherwise. another important point from the fiddler's perspective, is the need to move around and engage with the vibrancy of the music. only an attached mic enables this, of course.

you probably don't have any reference material hanging around of this genre, but it's fascinating stuff. i watched a televised production recently, of a live radio broadcast of top Celtic acts, one of which was a band i've followed casually over the last 2 decades - Capercaille (the name of a Scottish grouse now heading towards it's second extinction up in the Highlands). the female vocalist is something very special. all the mikes used in the broadcast were SM57's - ideal for stings in or out of the studio.

Quote:Something about the method of tracking suggests to me that this wasn't intended to be a pristine, polished sounding song, but more of a minstrel-style.

i share your suspicion. it's all a bit too casual on the miking front and room selection. i'd love to get hold of some decent tracking though, and put it through the mill. i think i might find the emotions of joy difficult to contain Big Grin

when you have it sorted...let me know if i haven't already spotted your post. i'd like to hear what you made of it and what your approach was. I'm working on the Butterfly Effect currently...your mix drew my interest. the good thing is that i understand the lyrics...and i actually think they are pretty cooool too !

laters...



Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#13
(30-07-2014, 05:59 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: and this is why your mix is difficult for me to engage in...but at least i can listen to mine without suddenly feeling a need to jump out of the nearest window. most mixes of this song had me wanting. i took a fresh approach which hopefully would please a wider audience.
I do know the what influence the music of Beatles had on Charles Manson, but I have never thought that my mixes could have somewhat similar effect to anybody. But please don't jump, there's much job here for you to do. I'm just a mediocre hobbyist. If my mixes suck, it's just my fault, but I always really try my best…
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#14
(30-07-2014, 09:01 PM)Olli H Wrote:
(30-07-2014, 05:59 PM)The_Metallurgist Wrote: and this is why your mix is difficult for me to engage in...but at least i can listen to mine without suddenly feeling a need to jump out of the nearest window. most mixes of this song had me wanting. i took a fresh approach which hopefully would please a wider audience.
I do know the what influence the music of Beatles had on Charles Manson, but I have never thought that my mixes could have somewhat similar effect to anybody. But please don't jump, there's much job here for you to do. I'm just a mediocre hobbyist. If my mixes suck, it's just my fault, but I always really try my best…

Olli, if i jump, it won't be your mixes that motivated me Wink

Pauli summed it up nicely; "....we do our best with what we have available." what i particularly like about your approach to mixing is that you are willing and open to try new ideas and push your own boundaries. i think that's fantastic....sometimes we can get a little trapped in thinking along the same lines with new mixes. i also like the fact that you think carefully about each musician's role in the performance and build your vision around this, and you do so without showing bias/preference to your own instrument. you are right to try and make the instruments shine and present them in the best possible way....it's an important learning point, and it's something i occasionally forget when juggling all the ideas and creative processes. so thanks for that too.

keep up the great work Olli, and thanks again for sharing your critique. i'd love to open the filters up and let those strings breathe, but i don't have the courage!

Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#15
One more thought from me.
The fact your mix sounds more pleasant on my AKG cans must be the difrent eq from my fairly flat Dynaudio BM 6.
So some master eq will make a diffrence.
Old ears, old gear, little boy inside love music and sounds and my wife, not necessarily in that order
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#16
(30-07-2014, 10:38 PM)Voelund Wrote: One more thought from me.
The fact your mix sounds more pleasant on my AKG cans must be the difrent eq from my fairly flat Dynaudio BM 6.
So some master eq will make a diffrence.

that's a really interesting idea.

i've been missing my mains owing to a room alteration - i now work standing up and the boxes don't like the extra extension on the speaker stands. i feel naked...i used them a lot for a second opinion and to break the stagnant rut that a single pair often creates. and they are my Numero Uno's for mastering...the coaxial tweeter is simply stunning. i need to do some serious labour to get them running in their new proposed location...and then i'll need to adjust mentally with a lot of referencing! nightmare, but fun at the same time.

so it's going to be difficult Mastering (that's with a big "M") without them...unless i sling them back and ignore the "swinging pendulum" effect; difficult to do because it affects tone! perhaps i should stack some concrete blocks under them.....

anyway, if i can get something to work i'll post up the V2 in a while when time is more accommodating. i must admit, you've actually got me excited with that idea....

incidentally, i had nothing on the stereo buss other than a mastering grade compressor for glue...didn't even cross my mind to do anything else on this occasion.

Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#17
well, i've pushed some EQ changes around and this is what came out. i'm not happy, but this raw material is like pushing a wet noodle. i must be a glutton for punishment.....

shelving filter gain was applied to the side channel to bring the strings up, minor shelf gain to the mid. stereo buss employed a para' gain at 390Hz to address the vox and aid balancing of the mix spectrum following the shelving tweaks, which should also address Pauli's mid-range bias. removed the original compressor, which was colouring the mix somewhat and instead went for a more transparent option; also changed the ambiance to a more top-end bias. it's now got more sparkle, but it's come at the cost of some discomfort to my ears....perhaps i tipped the balance too much in my enthusiasm to be done with it. ho hum.

many thanks to all contributors herein, great support.

"TAXI !", i'm outta here.


.mp3    Metallurgists_Enda_v2master_14080701.mp3 --  (Download: 7.06 MB)


Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#18
I think this is really close and you're being a little hard on yourself due to the difficulty... the ambiance is perhaps less realistic, but it certainly brings a lot more life to just about everything, and I'd say that's more important for the emotion. This mix had me nodding my head to the beat and engaged me, whereas your previous effort inspired a more analytical mindset.

Occasionally the vocal sounds a little "scooped" and perhaps bringing the fiddles down a dB or 2 could address the harshness, which really isn't too bad to begin with. Coming away from mixing a heavy metal track, the harshness of this mix is mild and probably not any more or less severe than it would sound firsthand in the pub, especially if they mic'd them directly to the PA. Here in Daytona Beach that's done all the time and I can't begin to imagine why... In other words, I'm not fussing.

Double bass on these tracks is pretty much untameable, isn't it? Either the performer is moving relative to the mic, which would be a nearly impossible temptation for me to resist personally (I played double-bass in a school stage band a few times and a stationary mic wouldn't cut it unless they wanted me to play like a robot) or the interior of the instrument is changing shape in response to different notes. Especially in older instruments, that's generally thought to be unavoidable, but for some it's desirable. Acoustic guitars have the same property... this is why a well made guitar often sounds better the older it gets.

At any rate, this is great. You can walk away from this with a clean conscience, knowing that you worked your tail off and got a decent result.
I'm grateful for comments and suggestions. Thank you for listening!
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#19
the following link refers to Enda's formal on-line version of the song, complete with a short movie for those who might be interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyckYANzsm0


(14-08-2014, 09:50 PM)pauli Wrote: I think this is really close and you're being a little hard on yourself due to the difficulty... the ambiance is perhaps less realistic, but it certainly brings a lot more life to just about everything, and I'd say that's more important for the emotion. This mix had me nodding my head to the beat and engaged me, whereas your previous effort inspired a more analytical mindset.

thanks for your feedback on the revised master, Pauli. from my perspective, i find it frustrating in trying to get something out that isn't there....instead of merely mixing what's present, "....warts an' all" to quote Oliver Cromwell. perhaps this is my major lesson here. i think a more "Voelund" approach in that sense would have been more rewarding; while i don't always agree with Niel's approach in some mixes, this is one where his wisdom certainly would work well i.e. accept what you got, don't fight it, and focus on the bits that really brings the mix out.

Quote:Occasionally the vocal sounds a little "scooped" and perhaps bringing the fiddles down a dB or 2 could address the harshness, which really isn't too bad to begin with. Coming away from mixing a heavy metal track, the harshness of this mix is mild and probably not any more or less severe than it would sound firsthand in the pub, especially if they mic'd them directly to the PA. Here in Daytona Beach that's done all the time and I can't begin to imagine why... In other words, I'm not fussing.

agreed. when i was remastering it, i felt it really needed going back into the mix with a different mind-set, especially regarding the vocal. your observations are totally valid.

Quote:Double bass on these tracks is pretty much untameable, isn't it? Either the performer is moving relative to the mic, which would be a nearly impossible temptation for me to resist personally (I played double-bass in a school stage band a few times and a stationary mic wouldn't cut it unless they wanted me to play like a robot) or the interior of the instrument is changing shape in response to different notes. Especially in older instruments, that's generally thought to be unavoidable, but for some it's desirable. Acoustic guitars have the same property... this is why a well made guitar often sounds better the older it gets.

this bass is an unwieldy beast! i should have left it so.

i found your comments interesting here on instrument characteristics, as well as your experiences. perhaps a decent room with a controlled frequency response would have made a big difference with the Enda project though. all those modal issues in the low end are so difficult to control. it makes mic placement, and indeed instrument placement critical on such low frequency, high energy instruments. but perhaps this was the recording engineer's ideal....we will never know.

Quote:At any rate, this is great. You can walk away from this with a clean conscience, knowing that you worked your tail off and got a decent result.

i'd hate my experiences to put others off from mixing this song. as much as doing a good mix is always important, sometimes we can do a good mix and we haven't learned from it, perhaps because we chose a mix of a genre we are more familiar with, as in the "Hello comfort zones" thing, or the raw materials were already of a decent quality. whatever, this multi offers experience.....and it's invaluable. a personal thanks to Enda for making it available and to Mike for posting it.....this song has changed my approach to mixing and that's the last thing i'd have expected..

thanks especially for your support and encouragement, Pauli.
Beware...........Cognitive Dissonance!
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#20
wow, i need to try this track now. I can already tell, listening to the different variants, that this will be a doozie. Any newbies here taking a listen, this is a master class in clearing frequency build up, while trying to retain musicality. This really hi-lights the compromises that have to be made in a real world mixing application.

Well done Dave.

Draper
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