Cur An Long Ag Seol - Juraj's mix

[Juraj]

That's it I can't make it any better. Giving up... :-)
I wish I could separate the acoustic guitar and mandolin to define them a bit better. Please fire some feedback.
Cheers
Juraj

[The_Metallurgist]

That's it I can't make it any better. Giving up... :-)
I wish I could separate the acoustic guitar and mandolin to define them a bit better. Please fire some feedback.
Cheers
Juraj

hi Juraj,

i understand. the first point to note is timing of the acoustic and the mandolin...they are out. listen to the acoustic bleed in the mandolin and time this bleed up with the acoustic. little things help, yeah? you will note there's insignificant bleed into the acoustic?

this is a bright mix...with bright materials. i'm mixing this currently and am well aware of the issues of the strings - bright, sharp, brittle, and it all needs rounding off, smoothing out with some good EQ to try and hit the most hazardous resonances. if you have access to tape sims, use um! major weapon in defeating the problems....try and think analogue with everything you do here in order to nail the issues and brutal accuracy that comes with working in the digital domain.

i'm finding the stereo image here difficult to comprehend, confusing. it makes the song a problem for me to engage in because i have no idea which instrument is leading - so i hit the skip button for sanctuary

i think there were room mics with this mix? can't remember. if there were/are, i'd personally ditch them. if i need ambiance i'll make my own. it gives me total control, rather than the recording engineer having it!

we all have a different mix vision, and maybe you perhaps haven't really thought through your vision before going into the mix? well, at least that's what it sounds like, if you know what i mean? personally, i put the acoustic to the left (not panned hard), mandolin to the right and i dumped the fiddles behind them in the depth field - panned wide'ish across the stereo image. the accordion came center and was given a little spotlight to flag it up in the mix because it offered some nice sonic variation. thinking this way gave me a stereo spread, good separation of the instruments, i could play the room better with ambiance and depth controls and fine-tune EQ to suit depth (and perhaps lose a bit of brightness off the fiddles too, and help them blend nicely).

a word about compression: it's paramount you know how to use a compressor otherwise the sharp attack on the mandolin and acoustic will actually worsen and this is the opposite of what you are looking for, of course. if it helps, i actually didn't use compression other than what the tape sims gave me....but you need good sims here. it also needs extreme vigilance on the stereo buss; i note you hit this song far too hard; this is a folk song, not Metallica, eh?

whatever you do, DON'T give up. you can only give up when you've nailed it....because then you will have learned something valuable. but sometimes it's also good to switch off if you're struggling and do a different mix....then come back to it later with a fresh perspective and renewed vigor

so....post your revision......and let's get this working, eh?

cheers
Dave

[Juraj]

Heey Dave,

thanks for your feedback and the time you spend on it. Yeah you're absolutely right. Too bright. I felt like the I was loosing energy rounding off too much high end but obviously I was wrong. The challenge for me was thatthere was quite a lot of guitar spill in the mandolin mics. There no room mics. The mandolin mics pick up the acoustic guitar what eventually sounds like the guitar's room mics. The bass took time to level. I used dynamic EQs to balance it the best way I could. Also I have no idea why I left the guitar in the centre but will definitely move it to the side a bit. The mandolin was quite unbalanced as well. Some lower notes were disappearing hence the compression setting but I let go few decibles on gain reduction on the revision now. Fiddles yep too bright. I have rounded of some highs on them as well as on the other instruments. also took your advice and went a bit easier on compression on the master bus. No heavy metal any more PPP
By the way yes I did notice lots timing issues in the performance of tis song though ignored any editing.
I'm still no happy but the results but will have to move on.
Thanks a lot for your feedback and the points you made. I appreciate it.
Cheers Dave

Juraj

[Juraj]

Added another revision with the vocal about 2db louder

[Juraj]

I can't stop now.
Automated the fiddles and cut some 4-5dB at 4kHz on the fiddle bus.
I hope this is much much better than the first mix, which when listening back to is really bad. I feel a bit better now

[The_Metallurgist]

I can't stop now.

good attitude

and a much better mix...it's coming along nicely. your work on the bass has paid dividends too!

i'd warm the mix up a bit, go for a cozy Irish bar kinda ambiance (low reflections because of the carpets and decor...people too make great absorbers!). you have an aircraft hanger on the vocal which needs re-aligning to something a bit more down-to-earth, sort of thing? think of something that will give a smaller room feel (early reflections) and blend to suite the depth of his vocal in the stereo field relative to the band. i think ambiance is important here (it's important everywhere, eh?), but this vocal has to sound "right" and an appropriate ambiance will do wonders to your presentation here.

reverb can be a difficult call to make. i've gone through a few monitors over time, and each has told me a different perspective. and of course, if the monitors don't quite deliver it (it's a tweater thing and phase alignment primarily and a few thousand other things on top), then you can't make an informed judgement on the ambiance balance. check your mixes over gear with small speakers and see how your mixes translate, they will be quite critical. the general rule for a reverb, is if you can hear it when the instrument is soloed, it's probably too much - unless you are after a specific effect of course.

the warmer ambiance (a loss of bright reflections....roll off the hi-end of your reverb emu's, say), will also help tame the overly bright delivery of the strings generally. but it all depends on your vision really, and what you want your listeners to "feel" here.

i'm still getting the compression, and it's adding to the harshness of the mix. go wild, back all your compressors right off and push the fader up a bit. it should feel better. i don't know the kind of genre that appeals to you, or if you listen to rather a lot of mp3 instead of CD (tut, tut), but what you listen to and how you listen to it will dramatically impact on your mixing approach. something to be watchful of

i complement you on sticking with it. i'd recommend taking a break now and coming back later on and having another listen with a fresh perspective and you will spot things that you will have overlooked today. fresh ears are important.

good effort Juraj, you've brought the mix forward a long way since the original posting! cool.
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PS. the bleed of the acoustic in the mandolin mic needs careful attention. if the bleed isn't timed to the acoustic guitar, you will experience comb-filtering and a coloration of the acoustic guitar in addition to your EQ. it's especially important here because of the extent of the bleed, eh? sure, experiment with nudging the mandolin track (soloing both the acoustic and the mandolin so you can focus), and see how shifting one of them radically changes the perception of the acoustic overall.
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laters
D
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[Juraj]

Hi Dave,

thanks again for your feedback and your suggestions.Very valuable. I see what you mean by getting this irish pub kind of vibe to it and take some high end off the reverb. It would probably suprise you but I did take some high end off the reverb on the mandolin and acoustics but it's probably not enough or maybe I should just search for different reverbs altogether. The vocal reverb treatment decision was purely based on my effort to find a space for the vocal that somehow sound as good as I can make it rather than making any sense of delivery of the song. As you mentioned earlier I didn't really think it through or have any vision to how to approach the mixing of this song or think of it in terms of the overall vibe and an impact on a listener.
I think I'm in the stage of learning where I struggle with giving each part/instrument definition. Trying to identifiy frequencies where the certain instruments are clashing. Finding a a space of each part in the song. I feel like I'm deaf sometimes and can't find what's in the way. I'm wonder how the great mixing engineers do it... :-)
I think that skilfull usage of EQs, compressors, so on is a tool to be learnt and eventually used without thinking, as a second nature. Only then I could possibly freely focus purely on the song and its true essence.
So I'm obviously far away from that as yet.
Someone said that utlimately the great mixing engineers not only possess great skills but most of all a great taste of music what consequetly allows them to come up with a great sounding records.
Mmm, anyways thanks for finding time and point out those things to me.

Cheers mate
Juraj

[Amphibian]

2:nd version is a huge improvement.

- It's still a bit too wet for my taste.
- Bass is a bit lost, you only hear a rumble.
- The center sound field is too empty when the vocalist is not there. During the intro you could place an instrument there.
+ Otherwise, nice panning.
+ I really like the way you introduced the shaker. Sort of like the vocalist is playing it.
+ Overall a really good mix.

[Juraj]

Thanks man. Thanks for your comments.
Cheers